1995-09-30 Heber on KFI
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{{#vardefine:keylist|}}{{#vardefine:Date|2002-11-16}}{{#vardefine:keylist|{{#var:keylist}}\Date}}{{#vardefine:Date.disp|2002-11-16}}{{#vardefine:Date.disp|[[{{#var:Date}}]]}}{{#vardefine:Topics|\Church of Scientology}}{{#vardefine:keylist|{{#var:keylist}}\Topics}}{{#vardefine:Topics.disp|\Church of Scientology}}{{#vardefine:URL|http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/docs/heber-kfi-transcript.txt}}{{#vardefine:keylist%7C{{#var:keylist}}\URL}}{{#vardefine:URL.disp%7Chttp://www.holysmoke.org/cos/docs/heber-kfi-transcript.txt}}{{#vardefine:Title%7CHeber on KFI}}{{#vardefine:keylist|{{#var:keylist}}\Title}}{{#vardefine:Title.disp|Heber on KFI}}{{#vardefine:Text|KFI 640 host Jane Norris interviews Heber Jentzsch (President of the Church of Scientology International), Priscilla Coates of the Cult Awareness Network, and Dennis Erlich, recovered Scientology member.}}{{#vardefine:keylist|{{#var:keylist}}\Text}}{{#vardefine:Text.disp|KFI 640 host Jane Norris interviews Heber Jentzsch (President of the Church of Scientology International), Priscilla Coates of the Cult Awareness Network, and Dennis Erlich, recovered Scientology member.}} {{#xploop:{{#var:Topics}}||}} {{#xploop:{{#var:keylist}}|\n* $s$: \o#var:$s$.disp\c}}
The transcript was copied-and-pasted from an email (which stated that it was released into the public domain); formatting is needed.
Transcript
[[Editorial comments]]
[Inferred words]
(Characterizations, nuances of speech)
*simple emphasis*
Ellipses "..." are omissions, "ums" and "ers," pauses, etc.
Repeated phrases may either be rendered or replaced with "..."
"--" may variously represent interruption points, or occasionally hold a
place in a column... Oh, figure it out for yourself, and don't expect
perfect consistency.
(about 0:25 of pleasant fusion-jazz riff. nice)
Jane Norris, host: This is KFI 640, more stimulating talk-radio, at
10:05 in the evening, we continue our conversation about Scientology; we
have with us in the studio, President of the Church of Scientology
International, Heber Jentzsch; also with us is Priscilla Coates of the
Cult Awareness Network; and joining us now, on the air, is-- Dennis...
(struggles with name, he helps) Erlich. And, Dennis, you were once a
member of Scientology.
Dennis Erlich: Yes, I was. For fifteen years.
JANE: Okay, and tell me about your experiences in the Church.
DENNIS: (begins slowly, seems self-concious) Well, when I (sighs) first
contacted Scientology, it was 1968. And, I was 19 years old. Uhhm, I
walked in, and they took me on a tour, much like the tour that you took
today....
JANE: Saturday.
DENNIS: Er, Saturday.
HEBER: That didn't even exist, then.
[[(the moment is weighed. "Saturday didn't exist in 1968," or, "No one
could get a tour back then." Go figure]]
JANE: Well. Go ahead.
DENNIS: Uhmn, am I going to be interrupted while I tell my story?
JANE: No. I hope not.
DENNIS: Uhuh, I appreciate it--
JANE: (to Heber) Give him an opportunity.
HEBER: Okay.
DENNIS: We've heard *plenty* from Heber, and he'll have--
JANE: And, he'll have, believe me, he'll have an opportunity to respond
to what you say.
HEBER: You'll hear some more! (laughs) That's the way it works, Dennis.
(laughs heartily)
DENNIS: Quite honestly, my stomach is churning, from the fact that..
(pause) This is a line.. His lines have been pumped into people's
heads, without any rebuttal for long enough. Ah, Scientology is a
series of facades, and he is the outermost of those facades.
JANE: (impatiently, cattleprod) Explain what you mean.
DENNIS: Well, erhm, when I came into Scientology, I was toured around,
and I was told.. Lots of claims were made for Scientology, that it was
the road to total freedom, that it would do all of these things, that it
would basically turn one into God, or, a god.
JANE: And you obviously felt that that was an acceptable thing for you,
for a time.
DENNIS: Well, you have to remember that I was 19 years old, I was
naive, and at the time, like most people who become.. infatuated with
this type of cult, I was undergoing some personal difficulties for which
I was seeking solutions. And so, the claim of these ultimate
solutions.. uh, it was like.. having found.. water in a desert.
JANE: So, you found some form of.. some saving grace.. you felt that
Scientology was the answer, for a time.
DENNIS: I felt that any group that would make such claims, would have
to be incredibly good, or incredibly evil. And, after having the tour,
and.. having this all explained to me, I made the statement that, if
Scientology is what it claims to be, then I should do everything I could
possibly do to help it. But if it isn't, then I should do everything I
could possibly do to destroy it.
JANE: How long were you involved?
DENNIS: Fifteen years.
JANE: What made you stop?
DENNIS: Well, I found out that, really, it was just a criminal
conspiracy.
JANE: (impatiently focused) Explain what you mean.
DENNIS: (uncomfortable) Well--(sighs) Lots of the activities of
Scientology, deal in deception of either individuals or governments, so,
in that sense, it is a conspiracy.
JANE: How were you deceived?
DENNIS: I myself was deceived on the basis that this was a system of
answers, rather than a system of belief. Um, Scientology claims that
you don't have to believe anything, and yet, you have to suspend your
disbelief, otherwise you are being critical.
JANE: What was so hard for you to believe?
DENNIS: (picking up pace) Well, there wasn't anything
that was really 'hard for me to believe,'
because it's presented on a gradient. JANE: In other words--
--A little at a time. ...Okay.
Umm, ultimately, after fifteen years
of... what I would say is very
dedicated service, to Scientology -- working,
9 in the morning til 10:30-midnight, at night
seven days a week, for $17.50 an hour..
I mean, $17.50 a *week*, excuse me-- JANE: 17 dollars
--50 cents a week, that's, and 50 cents?
when we got paid at all. That's
standard pay, in the sea org.
JANE: But, you were taken
care of, as a member? DENNIS: Uhh.. Taken care of,
Your housing, and your food-- in terms of housed-- Yeah.
Okay.
HEBER: (pointedly) And your medical, and your clothes and so forth.
JANE: Did you-- How much did you donate to the CoS?
DENNIS: Fifteen of my years. And, in terms of money? Probably
$1,700.00-- maybe 3,000 at most. But, I was on staff. So, as far as
the.. As far as how I was deceived; Scientology claims to be a system
which-- by which, you can achieve certain things. And those things are
only achieved in one's own mind. Those things.. are only a result of
one's own belief system.
JANE: So your success in life is gauged by how much you know, about
Scientology, and how far you have come along the path?
DENNIS: Exactly. Exactly.
JANE: Okay.
DENNIS: And, within that framework, you can achieve status, but within
society as a whole, you're segregated, from society, by the belief
system itself.
JANE: So, you really don't get to inter.. When you're involved in the
Church of Scientology, employed by.. How much interaction do you get
with the rest of the planet?
DENNIS: Well, really, what it amounts to is the average staff member
only does Scientology, and has a short time off. The deceptive part of
it is that Scientology really deals with exorcism, and that is what the
basis of it is, Hubbard talked about that, in the most advanced tapes,
that he gave on L-12, that exorcism *is* what you're dealing with--
HEBER: (softly but quite urgently)
Erm, he's had
about seven minutes, can I talk JANE: Absolutely. Give him
some time here? another minute here, until we
He's had about seven get through through this exorcism
minutes, you know.. thing. (to Dennis,) Exorcism?
Well..
[[Timeline: Dennis has had about five-and-a-half minutes to talk,
but, interestingly, Heber's interjection occurs almost precisely at the
7-minute mark of the clip, which begins with 5 seconds of dead air, and
about 20 seconds of nice fusion rock/jazz riff, the host's intro, etc,
and with neither interruptions by Heber nor the recovery from them
charged against Dennis' time. Further notations are made in this
format, "5:30/7:00"]]
DENNIS: Exorcism, that's the basis of Scientology, and, a person
doesn't find that out until he's spent tens of thousands of dollars.
That that's what he's being prepared for.
JANE: What are we
exorcising? HEBER: Well, he's--
He's--
DENNIS: You're exor- (begins chuckling forcefully)
cising ss-- You're
exorcising-- entities-- Heh, yeh-- Eh, lemme,
who are-- supposedly lemme-- Well, you know,
giving you-- Hold on a second--
He knew he wanted--
JANE: (sarcastically) No-no-- (sternly)
"Hold on" for Heber-- He's had
(Abruptly shouts) eight minutes--
LET HIM FINISH here! [[5:50/7:30]] DENNIS: He's
-- -- just going--
-- He's had eight to interrupt--
(pleading) minutes, he's --
Well, we're just just sitting --
getting to the there going-- (chuckling)
good part here, Naww, I'm-- naw, he-- Now, really--
hold on! Heber, He's-- He's talked-- This is--
please! Please, You've had eight minutes, This is what
let him finish! Dennis. Dennis. Dennis-- needs to be
-- You know, wh---- said. This is
-- exactly what
Now, wait a second. needs to be
said.
[[Jane is significantly peeved with Heber's behavior, unbecoming
of a guest. She plonks him. Dennis is telling Priscilla about
Heber's tactics of breaking in. Heber's mike is momentarily muted,
but he can be heard faintly]]
What he wants to do--
[[mic opens]] Okay, you're
JANE: I'm gonna *ask* you gonna cut it off, well you--
to cooperate with me and [[mic cut again, he frets on
let him *finish*! about "looking at the clock,"
and how "it's been ten minutes,"
etc]]
[[5:50/7:43]]
DENNIS: And please let me finish
what I'm saying! This is what is
deceptive about this cult, ahem:
The fact of the matter is that it HEBER: Naw, I-- You know--
deals with exorcism. The cult, Look-- you are talk--"Cult--"
from beginning to end, deals with It's not a cult, you know it's
exorcism-- It certainly *is* a cult, not a cult--
and I've been inside that cult, --
and I know, that it is a cult. No. You know what it is, and
There's mind control that goes on, it's not a cult.
because the-- (chuckles) I was in --
charge, of quality control, at their --
Florida Land Base. And I *know*. HEBER: Well, that's not my
-- position, and you know that
-- every church in the world has
I was posted by Hubbard himself. a quality controlll...
[[Heber tends to orchestrate his speech, sonorously and stacatto-like,
by turns, when he is talking over someone. It's almost like a dance]]
JANE: Hold on a moment. HEBER: No! Wait a minute! Let's--
Now, deal-- He's had thirteen minutes [[6:01/8:26]]
Oh!? *NO*! here and I just wish--
thirteen minutes!? No! Well, I'm looking at the clock up here--
[[No, indeed. Since Heber's "8 minutes" time-check, Dennis has had
just a further *eleven seconds* free to pursue his point; the
remainder, not 5 minutes, but fourty-three seconds, was consumed
by Heber's badgering over the single hot-button word, "CULT," and
his fulminating disagreement over what time it was.
Just so you notice too.]]
DENNIS: Listen, I've heard-- JANE: Let's just ask-- Hold on.
*his* line--for years. Both of you, hold on!
HEBER: Wait a minute, fifteen ye-I've been in Scientology twenty-four
years. And that's a lot longer than he is. [[Let the record show that
Dennis is snickering]] Now he indicates that he was in for 15 years,
obviously he chose to leave. And, Mister Erlich, I think you realize
that, when you were in Scientology, that we were opposed to a number of
things. We were also opposed to psychiatry, I don't believe
you support it, ah, I don't believe that you as an individual, uh, can
rea-- Look, here's the point: we can put all kinds of people on here--
DENNIS: (demands) Well,
Let's talk about exorcism!
HEBER: Let's talk about--
PRISCILLA: The point is that BTs-- Let's talk about *you*,
Let's talk about *you*,
DENNIS: Let's talk about the deception. Let's talk about *him*,
Let's talk--
JANE: (brightly) I'd like to I-- Once--
talk about the exorcism. If--
If--
DENNIS: Yes, let's please discuss If we discuss, If we
that. Let's discuss these beliefs discuss-- Let's--
that are not-- that you have to Hold on!
pay thousands and thousands of --
dollars to find out about. No! This is absolutely,
-- you know, his fabrication
-- of what Scientology is!
That is what it is!
And you can't deny it!
HEBER: (giddily) Well, listen, you know,
*I* watched a show the other night,
with Father Lavarre[[?]], On ABC TV, DENNIS: Oh! Now we're gonna--
you know-- and if you --hear some other--
want to talk about-- --garbage.
Hold-- Let's talk about the exorcism!
Hold on! Let's talk about *you*, --
as an individual, and, --
the destructiveness that you have --
aimed at a religion because you're --
no longer a part of it! It has nothing to do with that!
It's easy to find-- Has nothing to do with that
You know-- at all!
It has everything No, it doesn't. It has to do
to do with that-- with the deception
that goes on! It has to do
with the facades *you* put up!
JANE: All right, *nobody*
is getting their *point* HEBER: He's just gonna
across-- --by yell-- override me-- Override--
--
DENNIS: I have a *right* --
to talk, because I spent --
fifteen years of my life, --
the best years of my life! HEBER: I spent 24 years--
Deceiving-- deceiving people --
on behalf of you and your organization! --
--
HEBER: Naw, I think it was very clear,
in his early statement, he said,
he thought it was, you know,
he either joined it because
it was the greatest, uh, good,
or, he thought it was the greatest
evil, and he would attack it-- DENNIS: --And it is the greatest
And you spent 15 years-- evil. It's like the NAZI Party
(stunned) Now *THAT!* in America!
(unrepentant)
JANE: All right! That's gonna cost me?
Gentlemen, I've gotta-- Go ahead! Do something! That's
I've gotta st-- my opinion and I have a right
-- to it!
I've gotta stop you here,
we're gonna take a break!
On KFI, AM 640... more stimulating talk radio?
[[file kfi7.rm]]
JANE: ...our conversation about Scientology continues, Heber Jentzsch,
President of the Church of Scientology, along with Dennis Erlich, former
Scientologist -- We got into a pretty good argument about exorcism --
HEBER: (horns in) And about NAZIS, and he's talkin' about NAZIS, and I
wanna handle that because that particular allegation-- he knows very
well-- [Dennis snickers] --Yeh-okay-- he knows *very well* that the
[CoS] has dealt very strongly with this issue, and he also knows that--
DENNIS: I also know that it's a
fascist organization. Period. HEBER: Okay--
And I know that I have a right Let's just deal with that--
to that opinion, because I know --
the fascist nature of it. I --
know that people on the outside --
like Travolta *don't* know what's --
going on inside of it, like --
Kirstie Ally-- they live in the-- They're personal friends
they're waltzed around the outside of mine--
by people like you who show them a Personal friends of mine--
front-- they don't know about what Personal friends of mine--
goes on on the inside, they don't --
know about these They're--
RPFers who are locked up, they Let's just talk
don't know about a *lot* of things about--
that go on on the inside. Dennis,
"Dennis" nothing-- "Heber," Dennis, Dennis!
when are you going to stop locking You're having a problem
people up? When are you going to with communication, Dennis!
stop these things? Dennis, Dennis, Dennis,
-- you're just having a real
*I'm* having a real problem, yeah, problem here, now let's
I am having a real problem listening just address-- You-- It's
to the garbage you're putting out! very-- Yah, I understand
(exasperated chuckle) You "understand." Dennis. Now listen. You
I'm having a problem with the fact know the problem is you're
that you lie, and you don't even *care*! having here-- Dennis,
It doesn't even make a *difference* to Dennis,
you, that you lie. Dennis, you know,
you're sounding a bit wild
here, (lowers voice) lemme
just calm down--
PRISCILLA: Heber, when are you I-- (becoming stern)
going to stop the RPF? How many Hey, Dennis--
people are in the RPF right now? Dennis. Calm down.
Dennis, listen:
PRISCILLA: (stage whisper) It's 'Priscilla.'
Dennis (agrees): That's Priscilla talking, not Dennis--
HEBER: Dennis, I'm talking to Dennis, but I'm going to get this
particular thing taken up about the NAZIS, you know, first of all our
organization has exposed the fact a number of NAZI individuals
involved in various organizations, running drugs into this country. And
right now-- (Dennis interjects, unintelligible) --You bet your life.
And-- the National President of the National Association of the Chiefs
of Police has, really, endorsed our information, because we have exposed
those particular NAZI elements. And, you know Priscilla may remember,
Margaret Singer is quoted as one of the, ah, key people, about various
religions and so forth; Margaret Singer was, along with the Patron Saint
of CAN, Mr. Lifton, attending a conference in 1978, and here's what CAN
gets terribly terrified about: We expose the fact that those people were
attending the German Union of Child Psychiatry, on religion--
DENNIS: (exasperated) Come on, let's get back to Scientology!
HEBER: Nawwp, let's finish it up here, we're talking about us, because
we are doing social reform areas, and in that particular conference, uh,
Singer was there, it was sponsored by the German Union of Child
Psychiatry, and by one of these front groups for deprogramming. The
German Union of Child Psychiatry had several interesting members,
including Hildegard Hetzer, who ordered 25,000 children to their deaths!
You see, out of that conference -- in, in the concentration camps -- and
out of that conference.... Ah, if you're asleep, Priscilla, why don't
you just, uh, you know, just lay over on the side, folks, she's falling
asleep! The point was that we brought up that information, and, Singer,
you know was involved in it; I think that the fact that *we* have
exposed NAZIS is a terrible terrifying thing to these people--
JANE: (incredulous but perky) Are you claiming that Dennis is a NAZI?
[[Dennis cracks up]]
HEBER: I-- No, Dennis claimed that, Dennis claimed that. I didn't claim
Dennis is a NAZI. I claimed th--
DENNIS: No, I claim that your *organization* is *as* fascist as the
NAZIS were and as dangerous as the NAZIS were before they came to power,
and I want to see to it that they *never*-- there never *is* a world
that is ruled by Ethics Officers and the Sea Org, because if there is,
it'll be just as fascist as Hitler would have made it. Thank you.
JANE: Let's take a telephone call before we continue this--
[[she giggles, as Heber storms on..]]
HEBER: I think that people know
me well enough to know that I have
done more on that issue-- DENNIS: People know that you lie!
People know, Dennis, I have done
more to handle that than you ever have-- JANE: All right--
(Heber shifts gears)
And, I tell you what: You know I mean,
here's the Law Enforcement News, on CAN,
saying, you know, you people are really,
uh, you know, something should be checked out about you--
DENNIS: We're talking about Scientology, not CAN.
HEBER: We're talking about both. You're here: you put your
organization on the line!
DENNIS: I'm not a part of CAN. HEBER: You --
I'm just an individual who got Where do you live?
raped spiritually by Scientology. Where do you live--
And there have been plenty of others Well, I will tell you--
who got raped too.
Heber (engages 4WD-Lo): There's
*physical* rape by members of CAN!
And, you can talk about spiritual rape,
which is a rather subjective concept-- DENNIS: It is! It's a
I think the Spiritual Rape of Man is very subjective concept.
done by Psychiatry, and you know that, and
you know that I oppose that kind of *rape*,
because we've exposed it.
--
All-all right JANE: All right,
let's go let's go
to the telephhonne! to a telephone call here...
[[editor's note. This is bizzare. Heber abruptly echoes the host
as she breaks in, and he does it deliberately. After listening to this
passage numerous times, without paying much attention to it (it actually
sounds like a wrinkled bit of tape at first) but then.. "no, it can't
be.. but why would a workman be carrying a length of sewer pipe past
Jane's microphone at that exact instant...." But, seriously, there's
something in the "Reporter TRs" that calls for repeating words back at
the reporter, as a means of establishing dominance. Not that there's
much chance of that here, but Heber is reaching ever more desperately,
for every monkey-wrench in his toolbox]]
JANE: ...let's go to Jean,
who is calling from Hacienda Heights, Jean, you're on KFI.
CALLER: Hi.
JANE: Hi.
HEBER: What a battle, huh? Here you are, Jean. (laughs)
--
CALLER: Well, I'm not a former member --
of Scientology, but my mother was, Uh-huh..
and she spent about nine years in the
organization, and after they milked her
for just about every cent they could, she
finally came to her senses and left, and, uh--
DENNIS: Good for her.
CALLER: We're very, very pleased, yes, we really are. She was working
and, um, my father had just died, and she had a home paid for, and they
came in there, and managed to coerce her to take out a loan for the full
amount, or, for whatever amount she could get it for, and uh they also
signed her up for a bunch of classes, that she never took, and they have
never yet paid her back the money--
HEBER: Fine, then, if that DENNIS: Yeah, that is a
is true then write-- No-- problem, getting your money back.
Wait a minute.
If that's true, write me--
CALLER: She has written, and written-- HEBER: Write to me--
And this is an interesting thing: Write to me--
Scientology does not accept any kind
of certified mail, however they do
*deliver* certified mail.
HEBER: Well, write to me. I am telling you, if there's a problem
there, write to me.
PRISCILLA: Do you accept certified mail, Heber?
HEBER: I don't have to accept a certified mail, send me a regular
letter, what's your problem, you know?
DENNIS: Because it's proof--
CALLER: Oh, she sent many letters,
she's been a legal secretary for many
years, so her letters were [intact?] HEBER: How would y--
and they went to all the right people,
and she got all kinds of letters back,
we have.. she now has an attorney
handling it, because that was the
only way to get any kind of--
DENNIS: Yep, that's right,
that's right.
HEBER: Fine, look-- I-- Fine. Listen, I tell you, if there's a problem
you can write to me, and I appreciate that-- I, you know we are the--
PRISCILLA: Jean, did you see the Time magazine article for May 6th?
CALLER: [She's in the] --Time magazine article, ma'am.
PRISCILLA: Time magazine?
CALLER: Yes she is.
PRISCILLA: Oh-- Oh, okay.
JANE: Her mom is in the Time magazine article. Why is it that I keep
hearing these stories over and over again? These are unsolicited calls,
these are people calling in -- Heber -- why do we hear the same story
over and over again? That-- lots of money involved, and they-- once
they leave the Church they can't seem to get a refund?
HEBER: I mean, this is "everybody," and we've had three calls in the
last hour and a half-- well, ahmm, I don't think that three calls is
exemplary of the whole thing, I know that I have a number of friends out
there who are Scientologists, because I've lived in here in Los Angeles,
I don't know whether those lines are available to them, or whether your
screener's keeping them out. I've had that happen on shows before and,
uh-- Yeah, you laugh, Dennis--
DENNIS: Yeah, the great conspiracy
theory, that we've heard for so
long. The government is conspiring
against you... and, you know,
everybody's against Scientology-- HEBER: We stood up to
The reason the government is against the IRS-- We--
you is because you're an illegal
organization that engages in illegal
acts. Period.
HEBER: If we were an illegal
organization, we wouldn't *be* here-- DENNIS: That's right--
and you know that, because Scientology And for-- for--
has stood up against the Internal
Revenue Service for years, and we've
*won* against them, we've *won* against
other countries-- DENNIS: You haven't won
-- anything.
We have won in every single vector,
because, *countries* have come up
against us. *No* group has taken
on the IRS like we have, and
we have *won* against the
Internal Revenue Service, DENNIS: You're gonna
and we will *continue* to win overthrow the government,
against them-- I know, you guys are--
We're not gonna overthrow the That's what you're trying
government, we're helping the to do--
government because we're solving
the problems they have with *drugs*,
and I tell you what, you can, you DENNIS: (pronounces)
can love the Internal Revenue The problem that
Service for its criminal *acts*-- they have with drugs!
And-- (glibly enquiring)
Are you on drugs right now?
DENNIS: (under his breath, croaks) God.
JANE: (perturbed) That is an unfair accusation--
HEBER: No-- I said, *are* you. *Are* you. *Are* you.
JANE: (indignant) Well, he looks-- very lucid to me, Heber!
HEBER: Well, *fine*, I just asked--
PRISCILLA: Maybe we should go
to another call. HEBER: (in background, TR-3-ing)
Let's-- *Are* you? Dennis?
JANE: Yes, let's go to Jan, who's calling from Los Angeles--
(to Heber) I think that's an unfair question.
CALLER: (launches) Yeah I thought the call screener *was* biased,
seein' all these calls here. Every call's been anti-Scientology so far,
and I don't think that's really very fair.
JANE: Well, you're on the air, aren't you?
CALLER: Well, yeah, it's about time--
JANE: Well, speak up!
CALLER: (ponderously) --I have a couple questions--
JANE: (not suffering fools gladly) Well, SPIT 'EM OUT! (snorts)
CALLER: [I've heard] very good things about your drug program,
and also I'd like to ask Heber, what is it like to be Clear?
[[Heber goes totally "verbal tech"]]
HEBER: Well, I tell you what it's like to be Clear, it's the first time,
to come walking out, you know, and look at the world for the first time,
and feel like, there is a wonderful world out there, that there are a
great number of people out there who are wonderful people, and I've
gained a great number of friends because of that, and I'll tell you,
it's a feeling of looking to the future, knowing that I will go on, as a
spiritual being, that I will live throughout eternity. That's what it's
like, and feeling that it's a growing thing, an ascending thing, that uh
there is *life*, that there is going to be a *future*, that there is
going to be a created light of life and happiness and healthiness,
that's what I feel like it's like for me. And I'm glad somebody asked
me that question, (chuckling) it's the first time I've been asked that
on this radio show.
JANE: Also, she wanted to know about your drug program.
HEBER: The drug rehabilitation programs, uh Scientology has sponsored
NarCONon, which is a very successful drug rehabilitation program, which
is by the way, is suported by various governments -- in Sweden, in
Norway, ahh, is also supported that way in Italy, and it is supported
now in Spain, and so forth. We have taken tens of thousands of people
off of drugs -by the way, who are not necessarily members of the
Church. Its.. Just.. I have met with women whose sons lives were
destroyed because they were on drugs. We have taken them off of drugs.
We have the most effective drug rehabilitation programs in the world.
And we are now working in Chilocco, Oklahoma, with the native Americans,
to help them come off of drugs, where they have endemic situations out
there.
Now, I tell you what, you know, all of this noise, all of this attack,
all of this noise, is because we are effective, we take people off of
drugs. Who gets hurt by 100,000 people coming off of drugs? Who gets
hurt by a man who comes off of cocaine and heroin, who's making five
robberies a day, to pay for that habit? And then increasing the police
protection, and increasing all the other stuff that has to go on in the
neighborhood. Who is hurt by that? I- Only the people who are hurt,
are the people who are pro-drugs. The only people are hurt who want
to keep people in that particular situation. I will tell you,
Scientology has tremendous programs, I have affidavit after affidavit,
success stories by the millions, of people who have been helped by
Scientology. All of this rhetoric, all of this noise--
PRISCILLA: Yes. All of this rhetoric.
HEBER: (icily) All of this rhetoric from my opposition here, will not
change the fact that Scientology is the road to total freedom. It will
not change the fact that people are leavin-- living happier lives.
Yes, we're attacked. I think all great religions were attacked. It
hasn't been as bad as the Christians. They *killed* them. They threw
them to the lions, you know? Those people had a horrible time. And
they were, you know, burned by-- burned at the stake, and nailed to the
Cross--
DENNIS: Don't compare Hubbard with Jesus, *please*.
HEBER: I would *never* compare him with Jesus--
DENNIS: That's right--
HEBER: --and, I think that's *horrible* that you brought that up,
and he would be *appalled*, because he never wanted to
be put in that position. --
--
JANE: ...Tell me, Dennis, are HEBER: Who *says* that?
these programs helping people?
DENNIS: No, they aren't, they create a dependency that is worse than
the dependency on drugs, they create a dependency on Scientology.
HEBER: Ahhh--
DENNIS: And, the dependency on Scientology.. is a dependency that is
really harder to break than a plain addiction to drugs.
HEBER: Who said that?
DENNIS: *I* just said it -- didn't you hear me?
HEBER: (stammers) Uh, I originally heard it from Jolly West, but go
ahead--
DENNIS: I just said it, because I know. I ran the program at Flag, I
know that it creates a dependency. The Purification rundown has no
basis in scientific fact, they have yet to take any--
HEBER: What's the dependency?-- What's the dependency?
DENNIS: Hey-- wait, wait, I was asked a question, are you going to
permit me to answer the question?
JANE: Please answer. HEBER: Yes. What's the dependency?
DENNIS: Okay, the fact of the matter is that none of the programs,
neither the Purification rundown nor any other thera-- quote therapy of
Scientology has ever been demonstrated to work by the scientific method,
and that's why-- that's why--
HEBER: Ahhh, ah, okay--
DENNIS: --It's all anecdotal. It's all anecdotal evidence, and the
fact is that it's never been documented that any of this stuff works at
all, except as a placebo cure.
HEBER: You do not know--
JANE: Now, these drug cures you're talking about, are they done..
PRISCILLA: -- with no documentation. HEBER: Hold it--
JANE: --are they done in your community only, or are they done in the
general public, how does it work?
HEBER: They are done in both
places, and-- wait a minute-- DENNIS: They are done in a closed
Dennis, Dennis! environment, and don't just-- please,
(wheedling) Hold on! don't 'Dennis' me! I have something
Okay-- to say here too, we've listened to
Dennis-- No. You, you. Now let me talk.
you just made some
charges, both of you.
Of course, now
I've been around the world and met with the people in those programs,
which are by the way supported by governments. What you have found is
that in those programs-- by the way, you've been gone for ten or fifteen
years, I don't know how long, *but* there have been scientific studies
done, to show that this does work--
PRISCILLA: They've been done by *their* people--
HEBER: No. They've been done by
other people who are not
Scientologists-- PRISCILLA: By FASE, which is
They've been done by other people-- the Scientology organization.
Wait a minute! *Scientific*!
If you wanna talk-- PRISCILLA: And it is simply
Priscilla-- niacin,
Priscilla-- vitamins, sauna, oil, and a
Oh! (suddenly outraged) wee bit of exercise.
You know, you don't want That's all it is. It makes you
anyone coming off of drugs, sweat, but it doesn't do anything.
do you! You - don't -
want - anyone
off of drugs, and that's the truth! DENNIS: That's an absurd charge!
You are *for* drugs! You are for that's the most absurd
drug slavery and that is exactl-- thing I've ever heard!
You want to destroy-- Can't you make sense,
you want to destroy the spirit, come on, make sense, try
you want to destroy anything to make sense!
which works. Now, (calming self) (Dennis chuckles)
I will make sense. -- Please!
The point-- I want to come back to this--
JANE: I would love to come back to this, after this break; this is
KFI, AM 640.
[[file kfi8.rm]]
JANE: This is Jane Norris on KFI AM 640, more stimulating talk radio,
yes! We are talking about Scientology, yeah and, admittedly, we haven't
gotten a lot of your phone calls on tonight, so we will continue after
our guests leave at 11:00, and we will put your telephone calls on the
air, you will get your opportunity to speak your piece, that's what KFI
is all about. Meanwhile we are in studio with Heber Jentzsch, President
of the Church of Scientology International, Priscilla Coates, who is a
member of the Cult Awareness Network, and also Dennis Erlich, a former
Scientologist. Heber, you were continuing....
HEBER: --When you talk about something being scientific, if somebody
gets up there on a hill and they make-- something called a wheel, no
one's seen it before, and they say "Look, this thing rolls, and it goes
own a hill, and it rolls round and round, and it's called a wheel."
That can be proof that it works. When you take the fact that there's--
there are hundreds-- ah, like a hundred-thousand or more people who've
come off of drugs. And those people are off of drugs very effectively,
because, you see, there's something--
DENNIS: You haven't got a hundred-thousand members.
-- So, where are
HEBER: Well, ah, ah-- you know-- these hundred-thousand
That's kind of interesting, you know, people who have come off
because we have eight-million members... drugs?
The Boston Globe said, if there's only
fifty-thousand members, how come..
there are (laughing) you know, how come there's so much attack on the
Churgh of Scientology, You wouldn't care about it. Because--
DENNIS: Because of the number of
lawyers you have, not the number of members. HEBER: Ahhhh--
Let's go back to--
PRISCILLA: And the way you spend We're--
your money attacking. and the We're handling--
private investigators you hire.
HEBER: And they're effective, and that's
why we're still alive and standing-- DENNIS: I have a bunch
There are a lot of people who are making of questions that--
benefit, from the use of that drug
rehabilitation technology--
PRISCILLA: There are forty in Oklahoma. Forty patients.
HEBER: At a time. PRISCILLA: That doesn't
At a time, at a time. add up to very many--
And I talked to hundreds Because the courts only
in Spain-- allow that many.
And I talked to hundreds-- Yeah.
I talked to hundreds over
there in Spain-- DENNIS: In Spain?
Yes, in Spain-- Weren't you arrested
in Spain recently?
HEBER: (smooth roads fair weather, what are your crimes)
Oh, I was there two years ago, were you involved in that?
-- Anyway--
DENNIS: I'm asking if you I--
were arrested, and for what? Well, I--
Isn't that a question? Can we
get an answer to that?
HEBER: (blusters) Wh-hn.
I was arrested in Spain, they
let it go, they let me go, okay? DENNIS: For what?
Whuh. Let's just go
back to this fact that-- PRISCILLA: It was referred to
Huh? a higher court.
What--
JANE: What was the charge?
HEBER: *Being* a Scientologist,
was the charge, because they DENNIS: No, that wasn't the charge.
didn't have a warrant-- they
didn't have a warrant with my
name on it. They arrested a PRISCILLA: Falsification of--
whole bunch of people--
They arrested people for--
being Scientologists, they said DENNIS: That's absurd.
anyone who is a foreigner-- No! This goes back to your
*I* *was* *there* Mis-ter Er-lich, conspiracy theory--
I was there! And I spoke with Mr. Hubbard's conspiracy theory--
these people who had come out
of those mountains, who had been
treated, and who had used narCONon, and come off of drugs, when all of
the programs over there had failed. The psychiatrists were giving them
more drugs, and they were claiming a two-to-three percent success rate,
charging $30,000 to do it, and the people were going back onto drugs!
*We* had a success rate -- independent study, sociologically done,
over there, which was done by the government, 72% to 78% success rate--
PRISCILLA: When narCONon was studied in Michigan--
HEBER: No-NO! You guys DENNIS: You claim whatever you
want drugs! You guys want drugs! want-- That's absurd--
You are for it! You are trying That's absurd--
to destroy any drug program--
No-no-- JANE: Heber, give Dennis
Dennis, you want drugs. a chance to respond--
Do you want people off
of drugs? Do you want DENNIS: That's absurd,
them off of drugs? that's totally absurd.
Prozac is in there,
IT'S A KILLER!! It is
a psychiatric killer drug!
JANE: Heber, I'm gonna have to cut
your microphone off, if you HEBER: Fine--
don't give him a chance to He won't--
respond! He won't talk about drugs.
DENNIS: I have a list of questions from former members, I run a group
of former members, a sort of encounter group of former--
JANE: First, answer my question, what was the charge, in Spain?
DENNIS: Ah, you know,
I'm not even sure. Heber (triumphantly):
-- You weren't even there.
I'm not sure.
PRISCILLA: Falsification of records, coercion, capital flight; they
called it a pure and simple charlatanism.
JANE: All right. You have-- HEBER: And obviously the
I will allow you to ask *one* judge said, "Mr.Jentzch you
question-- Give it your best shot-- can go," because there was
no evidence, so they let it--
PRISCILLA: You told him your
mother was dying, Heber, you
made up another story.
HEBER: **YOU!!**
[[ the tone of pure shock in Heber's voice, at Being Found Out,
cannot be rendered in ASCII. It rings, it echoes. Rage and terror.]]
DENNIS: Whoa, listen to this. HEBER: Naw.
[[others boggle]] That is--
The louder he talks, the more truth, That is-- Hold on!
right?
HEBER: You talk about my mother that way? That tells me exactly what
you're like! *You* talk about my mother that way, and you say that you
love these people? You talk about my mother that way? I am angry about
that! Because, my mother *was* dying, and my mother *is* very ill, and
has been for some time. You talk about that? That's the kind of person
you are! I have *no* support for you, I am angry about that! And you,
Dennis, if you join with that, just.. That's the kind of thing you
people support! That is absolutely unconscionable! You talk about my
mother that way, Priscilla? (growling) How do you feel about people?
JANE: Dennis, ask your question.
DENNIS: Umm..(sighs) HEBER: No, I--
I-- I--
JANE: Hold on, Heber,
let him ask his question. HEBER: Do you think that's okay?
You-- Heber, you have You're the moderator, do you think
been dominating this conver- that's okay? Do you think it's okay?
sation since you walked into --
this studio. I think that But, do you think it's okay?
you oughtta calm down, and
give them a chance to respond.
HEBER: I don't like that being said about my mother.
*She* said that, do you think it's okay?
JANE: You're turning this
into a major issue-- HEBER: I am *furious* about that!
I think what you do-- I am *furious* about it!
--is take the-- You can laugh about it--
That's my mother!
[[The others are chuckling at Heber's adroit use of Scientology, to turn
the subject away from his arrest in Spain. Dennis begins to explain]]
DENNIS: He takes control of the-- HEBER: No.
[[ quod et demonstrandum ]]
JANE: I think what you do is take
an issue and turn it into-- if it's-- HEBER: She said that!
something you don't want to answer,
you will not answer, and you create
an issue.
DENNIS: (murmers) Exactly. Exactly.
HEBER: Every American out there who thinks it's okay to say that about
somebody's mother, fine. Join these people, (the growling tone again) I
don't think you do. I don't either--
DENNIS: Can I ask my question?
JANE: Please ask your question.
DENNIS: This question is directed from a group of ex-scientologists,
and it's a sincere question. We went through hours and hours of
confessionals, and all of our, quote, sins, are written down in folders,
and some people have stacks of folders like ten feet tall. We would
like our folders *back* from these people, because they can use it
against us.
JANE: That's your best question? (laughing) That's your best question?
DENNIS: And-- when will our-- confessional folders be returned to us,
and how?
JANE: (swallows) Heber.
HEBER: Is that in your request? I mean,
I don't know what he's talking about.
(louder) DENNIS: No, he doesn't know
No, I tell you what we'll do-- what he's talking about--
no, tell you what we do, Dennis-- "Send in my request."
No-no. Send in your request-- Oh, thank you--
You come with us, and we will shred
them in front of you.
JANE: That's a pretty good
DENNIS: (chuckles) Okay-- answer, hey--
(crosstalk) [[they all seem to agree, to a point]]
HEBER: No-no, wait a minute, that's his *best question*. And you think
we-- you know, that's bad? We'll shred your folders in front of you.
DENNIS: That's a-- that's a concern, of ex-members.
JANE: What's in your folder?
DENNIS: My *confessionals*--
PRISCILLA: Everything th-- Every thought--
JANE: Every thought, every action?
DENNIS: See--they-- Exactly. Everything that I've ever confessed, uh,
in Scientology. Uh, fifteen years of confessionals. And, the ex-
members have requested, for years and years, that their PC folders be -
they're called PC folders - be returned to them, and, uh, they have not
been able to get this done.
HEBER: You know, those folders have been shredded in the past, I mean,
of course, what it means is, you know for all time and eternity, you're
not in Scientology, and, that's fine, that's your choice--
DENNIS: That's fine with me. That is definitely fine with me.
HEBER: But anyway, I think that, you know--
DENNIS: that's a concern of a lot of people, that's why I ask it as,
quote, my best question. But I have plenty of other questions.
JANE: Okay, let's-- let's go to a telephone call, Dan has a question,
from Sherman Oaks, Dan, you're on KFI.
CALLER: Yeah, I have a friend, who, uh, his wife has been going through
Scientology, she's from a foreign country, she's been in this country
about two years, and you see a dramatic change in her, that I think is
not for the better, suddenly she starts talking about all the courses
she wants to take, and how that's the only thing she wants money for,
she's starting to work another job, to get the extra money for this,
anyone who says anything critical about Scientology, be it Time
magazine, the L.A. Times, those are liars, et cetera, will not brook any
sort of, you know, *inquisitive* criticism, and -- it's amazing
to see this change, this is a very sweet, nice person.
JANE: Okay--
CALLER: Priscilla, Dennis, you guys are doing a great job--
Nail this guy!
DENNIS: Well,
I have an answer-- HEBER: Is she nas-- Is she
I have an answer nasty to you?
for that-- I have Is she being
an answer to that-- bad to you? -- Ahem.
Scientology--
Scientology systematically destroys a person's ability
to question or think critically about things. Ah, the
reason that is, is that you have to suspend your criticism,
and go through the processes of Scientology, to see that
they work, in other words, that's actually part of what
you have to do: you have to suspend
your criticism in order to go through
the auditing, or the training
that they give you-- HEBER: Well, I believ--
It's all-- it's all, --
it all induces a mild state of --
hypnosis, which, over years-- Ahhm, uh huh..
which over years, can add up
to a walking, you know, a walking hypnosis.
JANE: Heber, what's happening? Why is
she disassociating from her family and friends?
HEBER: Well eh- uh, are you still on the line, caller?
JANE: Yeah, caller's still there.
HEBER: Are you still there?
CALLER: Yeah, I'm still here.
HEBER: So, are you saying that she's being uh, very vicious to you, and
attacking you, and so forth? is she some--
CALLER: If you raise the issue of something being wrong in Scientology,
I asked her about the Time Magazine article, immediately, it was,
'Do you believe everything that Time prints?'
I said, well, gee, I've read stuff in-- HEBER: Nah, I-- I--
the L.A. Times about-- 'Do you believe --
everything that is printed in the L.A Times?' -- No, I don't!
Any criticism-- No, I don't believe
everything in Time
DENNIS: No, but that's the line, magazine eith--
that's the line that they're fed-- --
--
CALLER: ..you sit there and change these Hold on--
things around, you use these little debate
techniques and get totally off the subject--
You know-- DENNIS: Exactly.
HEBER: I'll go right to the subject of Time magazine! Let's go to th--
CALLER: ...talk about your mother,
in a reasonable fashion-- HEBER: A "reasonable fashion?"
about a story you used to get out of --
a another country, for a charge in-- -- Naw, I-- I was--
And then you blow a fuse -- My mother was--
on this program! -- Huh, yeah, I blew a fuse
-- because I don't like people
-- talking about my mother that
-- way--
--
I'd like to come after you even harder,
and *make* you blow a fuse, tonight!
Because, I'll bet, if you suffered any HEBER: Well, I tell you what--
sort of "radiation sickness," I'll bet -- (bristling)
you have documentation-- You bet your life I do!
-- (crosstalk)
-- you are a liar and cheat, and a con-man! I'll get off the line, and
listen to his tirade afterwards.
(Dennis laughs)
HEBER: Huh, I don't think that deserves a response, because I'd talk to
somebody who's intelligent. Ah, I, uh I think that it's very clear that
there is a concern about the fact, in that Time magazine article, that
we are exposing drugs, and we are exposing the fact that, these kinds of
drugs like this killer-drug Prozac
is taking peoples lives,
and there's somebody who's [[(Priscilla sighs heavily]]
concerned about it, you know --
I dunno, why there is so much concern, but I tell you what, I'm
supported by a lot of media, and I saw Dan Rather hit it real hard, a
week ago, and, I've seen it on, uh Donohugh, I've seen it on ah, a
number of national TV shows, exposing this killer-drug, it's taking
people's lives. We are--
DENNIS: --Your program was in the Wall Street Journal,
exactly what your agenda is, with regard to drug companies--
HEBER: And, you know what happened? PRISCILLA: Scientology is
You know what happened? orchestrating a campaign
You bet your life. We are showing it. against--
And you know what happened? They lost
one billion one hundred million dollars in about two weeks, after they
put that article on the Wall Street Journal, and you know why? Because
people knew it was phoney, they knew it was destructive, No one's going
to take a drug. And that, that company, Eli Lilly, was producing Oraflex
before that. The Food and Drug Administration took it off, because it
was killing people. Well, they're puttin' out another one that's
killing people, and, I'll tell you what, Dennis, we're gonna continue to
go after it, 'cuz we don't believe that that kind of drug should be on
the market, and, that it causes people to commit violence. We're going
to continue; yes, your hand's raised, okay? I'm out.
JANE: (had been trying to call for a break) Y-- yes, this is KFI 640,
we will continue our conversation about Scientology, after this break,
on KFI.
[[file kfi9.rm]]
JANE: This is KFI AM 640, Jane Norris with you until midnight tonight,
we have a conversation going about Scientology, and I want to try and
get some of your telephone calls on the air. We will continue our
conversation after eleven o'clock tonight, your responses to the
conversation that we've had about Scientology. I want to get your
telephone calls on the air, I know we haven't had much of an opportunity
to do that, but please hang in there with me, and we will get you on the
line. Alaina is calling from Sylmar, Alaina, you're on KFI.
CALLER: Hello. I am twelve years old, and I'm calling on my own bill,
and, I am a Scientologist, and I want to say how good it is, and how
much it has helped our family and my parents.
JANE: Ah, how long have you been a member, Alaina?
CALLER: All my life.
JANE: Mmm-hmm, were your parents Scientologists, and then you were
born, and.. they indoctrinated you or you became involved, also?
CALLER: Yes, they've been involved for over fifteen years.
JANE: And, do your parents live with the Church too?
CALLER: Ah, yes.
JANE: Mn-kay. So, you live and are a member of the Church, and you
do every-day activities -- how are your playmates, what do -- do you
play with other Scientology kids, or do you get to play with other
people too?
Caller. I don't mind any other other religion,
we are not prejudiced of any religion--
JANE: No, I'm asking you, do you stay inside the Church, pretty much,
or do you get to go to school with other kids, how does it work?
CALLER: I get to go to school with whoever I want and I can be with
whoever I want.
JANE: Where do you go to school?
CALLER: Well, currently I am home-schooling. My school that I will be
going to, and, that I have previously been to, is both Scientology
schools.
JANE: Okay, so you've really never been in public school.
CALLER: Oh.. I have not been a Publi-- in a public school, but I have
been.. in private schools; they are not Scientology schools.
JANE: Mm-hm, you sound very intelligent, you're obviously not lacking
for education. Is this a common practice, Heber, do kids that're born
into Scientology, do they pretty much stay exclusive to the group, or--
Do they--
HEBER: Naw, naw, there's..(chuckles) with all the membership we have
internationally, people go to regular schools, ahm, and there are the
schools that, ah, which use Study Technology, which is very effective.
Mr Hubbard has developed an incredible technology for study, and there
are a number of schools springing up all over the world, which are using
those technologies, ah, in fact 2.5 million native Africans have
studied, and use Study Technology in
South Africa, so ahm, this is
something, and, by the way,
he sounds very -- uh, she? JANE: She. Alaina.
Oh, sorry-- --
Alaina sounds very intelligent-- She is, she does.
And, she's twelve years old, and her --
parents are Scientologists, and I think --
she has a right to her religion. JANE: I agree.
I think she has a right to live it, and
to uh, heh, to do as she wishes. Huhn.
Home-schooling is by the way not just a
concept with Scientologist, I want you to
know that there are a lot of Christian groups
that have home-schooling, and, uhh, they're
very effective, by the way, I've seen studies
on it, Christian schools, where their IQs are higher,
where their morals are much higher, and there's much, much less drugs
on their campuses, or are --in their homes obviously, and their lives
are drug-free, I think it's a great idea.
JANE: You have a comment?
DENNIS: Yes I do, uhm, I have four daughters, and they were all
raised in Scientology, and their education was atrocious, based on
Scientology. Uh, their contacts with the outside world, were minimal.
And, when they finally did make contact with the outside world, they
had about two or three years of catch-up to do. That's all of them.
HEBER: Well, makes you a poor father, my daughter's doing great,
and my kid is doing great-great, my daughter is five years old she
reads, uh, way ahead of her time, and my boy is six, and he's reading
way ahead of his time, and I jus-- because I spent the time with them,
and used the technology that L. Ron Hubbard has, of study, with them,
and I tell you what: There's nothing wrong with helping people learning
how to study, 'specially when you've got such a high illiteracy rate in
this country, and have an extremely high drop-out rate in this school
system, in this country -- (contempuously) people who can't even read a
menu, people who can't even read a bus card.
PRISCILLA: The big secret
of the Study Tech is
looking up words. HEBER: (lugubrious) Well good! Good!
--
-- JANE: What does that mean--
Looking up words in the --Looking up--
dictionary. I dare say Oh, I see. Well, that's--
we all think that's a fairly
good technique, but there's
nothing secret or magical
about it.
DENNIS: Hubbard certainly
didn't invent it. Heh, heh... HEBER: Well, there's--
JANE: Well, if he can get
kids to read, I gotta applaud
that, because -- they don't! DENNIS: In any case, in any case--
HEBER: The schools are failing in that respect, and Mr. Hubbard has
helped an awful lot of many-- uh, people do that, and we're continuing
to do it, we're very successful at it.
JANE: Let's take another call.
(the next caller, Roxanne, has hung up, so...)
--
Let's go... to John who's calling from San Diego;
John, you're on KFI.
CALLER: Hi.
HEBER: Hi, John.
CALLER: I have one question, one question only, and I'd like a straight
answer to it...
HEBER: (Jumping in at the head of the line, bracing) Okay...
CALLER: ...I would like someone to describe the process of exorcism,
uh, Dennis really never finished.
DENNIS: Yeah, I would *like* to talk about that--
HEBER: (Barging in) Well, you can pick it up in Dianetics, Modern
Science of Mental Health..[[Dennis sighs heavily]]..and what it does is
deal with the mental image pictures that a person has and it can deal
with a person's past going back into his past life.
DENNIS: (Cutting back in) It's got nothing to do with that.
HEBER: Well, it *does* have
everything to do with it and you
DENNIS: It doesn't have *know* that. Dianetics Modern
anything to do with that. --
Science
DENNIS: [to the caller] of Mental Health --
Do you want an answer or --
do you want to hear what Dianetics, Dianetics --
the propaganda front is? --
Dianetics Modern Science of
CALLER: I would like an Mental Health has an answer
answer from Dennis. to that --
--
DENNIS: Okay, well I'll and Dennis knows that Dianetics
give you one. has the answer to it.
DENNIS: He's blocking. He's blocking!
HEBER: I am not blocking that! [to caller] You know, you're sitting
here, John....
CALLER: Could I have my
answer please?
DENNIS: I would like to
answer, but he won't stop -- JANE: Well, this is the second
time it's come up, and [exasperated]
HEBER: [sardonically] Suure -- neither time have we gotten an answer!
Yaknow -- Look --
I'm not here to discuss-- CALLER: I heard the other answer,
I am not here to I'd like to hear Dennis'.
discuss the religion of
Scientology -- DENNIS: I'd love to answer but Heber
won't stop talking.
HEBER: [insistently] That's the thing,
Dennis, Dennis . . . you won't stop to let me --
DENNIS: This is the technique that he drills before he comes on an
interview like this so he won't have to answer a question.
HEBER: [Very loudly] Oh! Give me a break, Dennis! Come on! You know
better than that! [You were in for] fifteen years --
JANE: Why won't you let him answer the caller?
CALLER: Could I have Dennis' answer please? Dennis' answer?
HEBER: *I said* that Dianetics Modern Science of Mental Health has an
answer to it.
JANE: Now there are three of us asking -- let him answer -- All right.
[Heber's mike is cut]
JANE: Okay. There ya go.
HEBER: All right, cut me off, all right --
JANE: Well? You won't stop!
DENNIS: Okay, now I can answer? (chuckling) That's great. That's great,
thank you very much. The exorcism process Hubbard describes -- that...
the individual has ended up, over the process of millions and millions
of years, plagued by thousands and thousands of entities -- besides
himself -- that are occupying his body. These entities speak to him and
give him messages which are his...reactive mind, they call it. [[Heber
bursts in]]
HEBER: Well, she cut off my microph-- [[Evidently, Priscilla Coates
Hey! Get your hands offa me! attempts to restrain Heber, who
You get your hands offa me! grows instantly furious.
You keep your hands offa me! Others are chortling at
the spectacle.]]
JANE: Let it go, Priscilla, we don't
want to start a fight!
HEBER: I'm not gonna start a fight, [Priscilla says, "Is this
but if she puts her hands on-- I don't any way to treat a lady?"]
care if you are -- you call yourself
a lady, you know -- you better *watch it*, DENNIS: Look at this
Priscilla! [palpable menace] Wouldn't technique....
be the first time! No, I mean my
microphone's cut off, I'll just -- PRISCILLA: Why don't we
describe what's happening.
HEBER: ("reporting") My microphone
has been cut off, and I'm standing
here next to Dennis talking...
DENNIS: This is the kind of HEBER: Well... because I don't
thing that really -- feel my microphone should be cut off!
CALLER: It seems pretty clear that he doesn't want you to answer.
DENNIS: No, he definitely
doesn't want me to answer... HEBER: "I tell you what...
This is a serious thing to him, You people... you people have...
that I'm talking about exorcism, I think that, you know...
but that's what Scientology is about your --
actually about... that's exactly [resumes shouting]
what Scientology is about -- Because you love drugs don't you!
the.. exorcism process is.. You think drugs is a wonderful
The exor-- thing, don't you!
(giggles) Listen to this... You love drugs, don't you Dennis!
Dennis, you love drugs, don't
you, huh? You love drugs. And
you hate us because we take
people off of drugs.
[querulously] Are you on drugs
CALLER: This is pretty cool, though. right now Dennis? Dennis.
(demanding) What are you on?
What are you on, Dennis?
[Dennis' microphone cut off by host]
JANE: All right, we're gonna take a break -- here on KFI.
[[Heber can be heard continuing to argue, in the background]]:
HEBER: [All I can do is] stand over here and talk, you know? That's all
I can do! You know?
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
(end of recording)
In article <aackqi02muo@drn.newsguy.com>, Reposter@Reposter.Org says...
Reposted:
From: inform@Primenet.Com (the inFormer)
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Body Rasins
Date: 30 Sep 1995 16:09:40 GMT
Organization: Primenet
Lines: 182
NNTP-Posting-Host: usr2.primenet.com
NNTP-Posting-User: inform
OCCULT MOUTH
(SPEAKING IN FOOT)
GLENDOWER:
I can call spirits
from the vasty deep.
HOTSPUR:
Why, so can I,
or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them?
(Shakespeare, King Henry IV)
Heber Jentzsch looked worried. Worse yet, he seemed "off
his feed." He was confronting a pair of semi-informed news
anchors from a
local TV station the evening before the explosive
Time Magazine article hit the
newsstands. The newsreaders were
citing the charges made in the Time magazine article.
Joining
the broadcast by telephone from Cape Cod, Massachusetts was Earl
Cooley, the
acerbic, venomous legal mouthpiece of Scientology.
Uncharacteristically, Jentsch
seemed to fumble his usually
oily-smooth responses. Cooley jumped in hotly (joke)
several
times before Jentsch could flub a respose. In a rapid-fire,
Walter
Winchell-like cadence, Cooley alternately hurled
accusations and threats against Time
Magazine and the reporter
who wrote the article. This was vintage Cooley. An expert
using
the drills that the Guardian's office used to teach its Public
Relations people.
Attack, Attack, Attack! "The bank follows the
line of attack", Hubbard used to say.
While it was vintage Cooley, it certainly was not vintage
Jentsch. His usual
arrogant, smugness and "I am in charge here"
smile were missing. He looked grim. Maybe
he could not see the
newsreaders directly, being forced to look only into a camera,
maybe the makeup people goofed and gave him that greyish pallor,
maybe he was tired from
lack of sleep, or maybe he was just tired
of dissembling (look it up) to the press after
all these years.
In reviewing the tape of the news broadcast it was difficult
at
first to spot the cause of Heber's distress. Finally things
seemed to come into focus.
Heber was covered from head to foot
with almost invisible, little spirit-like things!
Each one was
about the size of a raisin. These little shriveled-up entities
must be the
famous OT III "Body Raisins" Hubbard claimed
possessed all of us. There they were on
Heber, visible to the
entire TV audience, seeming to have a sentience all their own!
(certainly Heber didn't) Worse for Heber: they were influencing
his mind and behavior,
and he didn't even know they were
there...swarming over every nook and cranny of his
body. This
startling discovery also explains Heber's bizarre behavior the
following
week.
There seems to be no other explanation for Heber's parading
a complete set
of ridiculous allegations, downright lies,
attempted intimidation in the week that
followed than to say that
he was under the influence of his BRs gone amuck. He kept
saying
that Scientology had 8 million members, that 100,000 people had
been freed from
drugs and even that the author of the Time
magazine article was a stalking horse for the
IRS. When asked a
direct question about Scientology, Heber would launch off into a
different topic.
That Sunday night, almost a week after that issue of Time
hit the
newsstands, Heber appeared on a radio talk show on KFI in
Los Angeles. The worst thing
possible happened: Heber was
completely overcome by his abundant complement of Body
Raisins.
Some say Heber was also suffering from another manifestation of
Body Raisins -
clumping - wherein they glom onto each other in a
big, sticky, ugly mass of evil
influence and force a person into
completely wacko behavior. The host of the talk show
even had to
shut down Heber's microphone. The BRs must have been keeping his
jaw moving
as Heber vented his wrath in a loud, wild, wailing
"scream-of-unconciousness".
One
of the guests on the show, Dennis Erlich, started to
give an explanation of an aspect of
Scientology's occult
"theology" concerning exorcism.
Heber, unasked, started
screaming in a most ungracious
manner. BR possession had taken over. The show's host
promptly
cut off his microphone. Not to be thwarted from blocking the
revelation of his
cult's most guarded (and expensive) secrets,
Heber rose out of his chair, went around
the table to where the
other guests were seated and from his mouth came the strangest
manner of emanations (perhaps he was even "speaking in foot?").
Here's a sample of
the dialogue from KFI's show (Hosted by
Jane North):
Caller: I would like someone to
describe the process of exorcism
. . . Dennis never really explained it.
Dennis: Yes,
I would like to talk about that . . .
Heber: (Interrupting) Well, you can pick it up
in Dianetics
Modern Science of Mental Health . . . What it does is deal with
mental
image pictures a person has and it can deal with a
person's past going back into his
past lives . . .
Dennis: (Cutting back in) It has nothing to do with that . .
Heber:
Well, it has everything to do with that and you [Dennis]
know that. Dianetics Modern
Science of Mental Health . . .
Dennis: [to the caller] Do you want an answer or do you
want to
know what the propaganda front is?
Heber: [at the same time as Dennis]
Dianetics, Dianetics,
Dianetics Modern Science of Mental Health has an answer for you
and Dennis KNOWS that. Dianetics has the answer to . . .
Dennis: He's blocking. He's
blocking!
Heber: I am not blocking!
Dennis: I would like to answer . . .
Caller: I
still haven't had an answer.
Heber: I am not hear to discuss the religion of
Scientology . .
Dennis: I'd love to answer but Heber won't stop talking. That's
the
thing, you [Heber] won't stop to let me . . .
Heber: [Sarcastically] Dennis, Dennis .
. .
Dennis: This is the technique he drills before he comes on an
interview like this
so he won't have to answer a question.
Heber: [Very loudly] Give me a break! You know
better than that
. . .
Jane: Why won't you let him answer the caller?
Caller: Could
I have my answer please?
Heber: I said that Dianetics . . .
Jane: Now there are
three of us asking so let him. . .
At this point, Heber's microphone cut off by
the host. He
could be heard in the background trying to yell over Dennis' mic
as Dennis
attempted to answer the caller. Then, just a few
seconds later, he could be heard
screaming "Get your hands off of
me! You get your hands off me! I don't care if you
are a . . .
she calls herself a lady!".
Witnesses are sure this outburst was
caused by Heber finally
discovering his possession by the dreaded Body Raisins.
Heber made his way around the table to Dennis' microphone
where Dennis was giving the
caller an explanation of Hubbard's
theories of possession and techniques of exorcism.
With bad
breath and booming voice, he began screaming into the microphone,
and Dennis's
ear, the following:
Heber: "You love drugs don't you, Dennis?. That's right isn't
it
Dennis. You love drugs! . . . Are you on drugs now Dennis?
Tell us are you on drugs?"