Difference between revisions of "2009-05-31 Why do people persist in voting Republican/woozle/2009"
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(→Midian: Back on Topic: done responding, I think?) |
m (moved Talk:2009-05-31 Why do people persist in voting Republican/woozle to 2009-05-31 Why do people persist in voting Republican/woozle/2009: I should have put this in an archive sub-page to begin with. Either LQT hides the history, or it did...) |
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| − | + | [[category:debates/informal]] | |
| − | [[category: | + | ==Round 1== |
| − | + | ===Midian=== | |
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| − | ===Midian | ||
As a liberty-minded individual, I vote Republican only because I cannot come around to the Democrat mindset. | As a liberty-minded individual, I vote Republican only because I cannot come around to the Democrat mindset. | ||
* The premise that an unborn child's life is worth less than a convicted murderer; murder is murder, all life is sacrosanct, I am against capital punishment AND free (gov. funded) abortion, but if I had to choose, as I do in politics, my choice is clear, I side with the innocent. | * The premise that an unborn child's life is worth less than a convicted murderer; murder is murder, all life is sacrosanct, I am against capital punishment AND free (gov. funded) abortion, but if I had to choose, as I do in politics, my choice is clear, I side with the innocent. | ||
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I have similar issues with the Republicans (legalize marijuana already), however, when weighing one against the other, these are more important to me than those. Without the 2nd amendment, who will stand up for the others? "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." -Thomas Jefferson | I have similar issues with the Republicans (legalize marijuana already), however, when weighing one against the other, these are more important to me than those. Without the 2nd amendment, who will stand up for the others? "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." -Thomas Jefferson | ||
| − | ===Woozle responds | + | ===Woozle responds=== |
* [M] ''"The premise that an unborn child's life is worth less than a convicted murderer..."'' | * [M] ''"The premise that an unborn child's life is worth less than a convicted murderer..."'' | ||
** Framing it as a matter of "worth" is oversimplifying the issue. First off, a convicted murderer ''may'' in fact be innocent (and states with a death penalty tend to have a higher error rate, from what I can tell). Second, is it really in a child's best interests to be born to parents who don't want a child, and who may be inadequately prepared to take care of it? More generally, "pro-life" people seem to be under the illusion that it is ''always'' better to be alive than not to be, but this is not always the case, and we can only use our best judgment as to when life is preferable and when it is not. | ** Framing it as a matter of "worth" is oversimplifying the issue. First off, a convicted murderer ''may'' in fact be innocent (and states with a death penalty tend to have a higher error rate, from what I can tell). Second, is it really in a child's best interests to be born to parents who don't want a child, and who may be inadequately prepared to take care of it? More generally, "pro-life" people seem to be under the illusion that it is ''always'' better to be alive than not to be, but this is not always the case, and we can only use our best judgment as to when life is preferable and when it is not. | ||
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Yes, the government should fear -- or at least be answerable and accountable to -- the people. We seem to be losing that. (...with help from Republican arguments against "populism", thanks. The Republicans ''are not your friends on this issue''.) | Yes, the government should fear -- or at least be answerable and accountable to -- the people. We seem to be losing that. (...with help from Republican arguments against "populism", thanks. The Republicans ''are not your friends on this issue''.) | ||
| − | + | ==Round 2== | |
| − | ===Midian responds | + | ===Midian responds=== |
* You have the chance to save an innocent baby from drowning or a convicted murderer. Who do you dive in and save? | * You have the chance to save an innocent baby from drowning or a convicted murderer. Who do you dive in and save? | ||
* 1 innocent executed is far too many. This is why I am against capital punishment. Our system is broken. A justice system where liberal judges release violent offenders far too often, where there is only a 1 in 10 chance of a conviction for capital crimes, and where the average time spent for murder 1 is 5 days. Also, corrupt cops, judges, and lawyers all convicting the innocent and releasing the guilty by keeping evidence hidden, fabricating evidence, fabricating and hiding testimony, doing deals, etc. Until the system is fixed, there should not be executions because you can't undo that once someone is found innocent after the fact, which happens far too often. | * 1 innocent executed is far too many. This is why I am against capital punishment. Our system is broken. A justice system where liberal judges release violent offenders far too often, where there is only a 1 in 10 chance of a conviction for capital crimes, and where the average time spent for murder 1 is 5 days. Also, corrupt cops, judges, and lawyers all convicting the innocent and releasing the guilty by keeping evidence hidden, fabricating evidence, fabricating and hiding testimony, doing deals, etc. Until the system is fixed, there should not be executions because you can't undo that once someone is found innocent after the fact, which happens far too often. | ||
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How I see it is the Republicans and Democrats are different rails of the same track, both heading us in the wrong direction. However, typically (but not always, especially locally) the Republicans allow me more freedom to make my own choices with my money, my health, my defense, my freedoms. | How I see it is the Republicans and Democrats are different rails of the same track, both heading us in the wrong direction. However, typically (but not always, especially locally) the Republicans allow me more freedom to make my own choices with my money, my health, my defense, my freedoms. | ||
| − | ===Woozle responds at length | + | ===Woozle responds at length=== |
====preface one==== | ====preface one==== | ||
I will respond in more detail later (gotta go pick up kids from school in 20 minutes), but I need to make something clear. | I will respond in more detail later (gotta go pick up kids from school in 20 minutes), but I need to make something clear. | ||
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That's not the America I grew up in, and it's not a direction I want to see us going in. --[[User:Woozle|Woozle]] 20:10, 4 November 2009 (UTC) | That's not the America I grew up in, and it's not a direction I want to see us going in. --[[User:Woozle|Woozle]] 20:10, 4 November 2009 (UTC) | ||
| − | + | ==Round 3== | |
| − | ===Midian's Response | + | ===Midian's Response=== |
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# Provide incentives to save money, as the military does. If an idea works better and saves money, 10% of the savings of the first year goes to the person who provided the idea. | # Provide incentives to save money, as the military does. If an idea works better and saves money, 10% of the savings of the first year goes to the person who provided the idea. | ||
# Implement what works elsewhere. If NH does better with a 75/25% classroom/administration spending split, implement the same. | # Implement what works elsewhere. If NH does better with a 75/25% classroom/administration spending split, implement the same. | ||
| − | ===Woozle Responds | + | ===Woozle Responds=== |
====Left vs. Right==== | ====Left vs. Right==== | ||
I think we agree on this overall; see [[political ideological axis]] for an overview, and [[political ideological axes]] for other ways of mapping political ideologies. | I think we agree on this overall; see [[political ideological axis]] for an overview, and [[political ideological axes]] for other ways of mapping political ideologies. | ||
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'''Suggestion #5''': Yes, though I'd like to hear what the objections are to doing this. (If there are no objections, then why aren't we?) | '''Suggestion #5''': Yes, though I'd like to hear what the objections are to doing this. (If there are no objections, then why aren't we?) | ||
| − | + | ==Round 4== | |
| − | ===Midian | + | ===Midian=== |
Ron Paul is who I voted for due to many of the reasons stated above. I even wrote him in for the general election because I knew he was the only one who would get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan. | Ron Paul is who I voted for due to many of the reasons stated above. I even wrote him in for the general election because I knew he was the only one who would get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan. | ||
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I feel like I am clarifying points more than presenting new ideas or defending them. What are YOUR suggestions? | I feel like I am clarifying points more than presenting new ideas or defending them. What are YOUR suggestions? | ||
| − | ===Woozle | + | ===Woozle=== |
: [M] ''"Ron Paul is who I voted for due to many of the reasons stated above. I even wrote him in for the general election because I knew he was the only one who would get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan."'' | : [M] ''"Ron Paul is who I voted for due to many of the reasons stated above. I even wrote him in for the general election because I knew he was the only one who would get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan."'' | ||
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What do you see as the biggest, most urgent problems America currently faces? | What do you see as the biggest, most urgent problems America currently faces? | ||
| − | + | ==Round 4== | |
| − | === | + | ===Midian: Tabula Rasa=== |
A new beginning. Here's where I would start: | A new beginning. Here's where I would start: | ||
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====Taxes==== | ====Taxes==== | ||
| − | === | + | ===Woozle: Tabula Response=== |
====The Constitution==== | ====The Constitution==== | ||
* [M] ''"The founding fathers were far more intelligent, prescient, and concerned with our nation as a whole than any of our politicians today."'' | * [M] ''"The founding fathers were far more intelligent, prescient, and concerned with our nation as a whole than any of our politicians today."'' | ||
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On the subject of deficit spending, you might want to read [http://acandidworld.com/2009/11/19/if-not-the-deficit-then-what/ this]. | On the subject of deficit spending, you might want to read [http://acandidworld.com/2009/11/19/if-not-the-deficit-then-what/ this]. | ||
| − | + | ==Round 5== | |
===Midian responds=== | ===Midian responds=== | ||
[W] "but let's not forget who got us into this mess, if you're going to blame Obama for not getting us out of it fast enough." | [W] "but let's not forget who got us into this mess, if you're going to blame Obama for not getting us out of it fast enough." | ||
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I have some other specific ideas which are just starting to come together; I will try to post them later as an addendum (right now I have to go pick up kids...) In the meantime, you can read about [[InstaGov|this]], which is my idea for web-based software to make it easier for large groups of people (as in thousands or millions) to reach sensible decisions. | I have some other specific ideas which are just starting to come together; I will try to post them later as an addendum (right now I have to go pick up kids...) In the meantime, you can read about [[InstaGov|this]], which is my idea for web-based software to make it easier for large groups of people (as in thousands or millions) to reach sensible decisions. | ||
| − | + | ==Round 6== | |
===Midian: Back on Topic=== | ===Midian: Back on Topic=== | ||
We've digressed to many specific issues, some of which we've even come to agreements on, but back to the original topic: Why do people persist in voting Republican? | We've digressed to many specific issues, some of which we've even come to agreements on, but back to the original topic: Why do people persist in voting Republican? | ||
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Anyway, like I said, it was just the beginnings of an idea. | Anyway, like I said, it was just the beginnings of an idea. | ||
| − | ==Woozle: Topical Response== | + | ===Woozle: Topical Response=== |
: [M] "Not biologically selectable for, because it has no direct benefit (other than kin selection, which is highly debatable still), highly likely selectable against due to the detriment to the original life form. Yet it still persists in a small percentage of the population." | : [M] "Not biologically selectable for, because it has no direct benefit (other than kin selection, which is highly debatable still), highly likely selectable against due to the detriment to the original life form. Yet it still persists in a small percentage of the population." | ||
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There are problems with this idea too... but I can imagine ways around them. | There are problems with this idea too... but I can imagine ways around them. | ||
| + | ==Round 7== | ||
| + | ===Midian Clarifying again=== | ||
| + | One can always pick and choose specific issues to debate about, and as I said, the current GOP is about as far from Conservatism as the Democrat party is. My ideal of Conservatism runs more along the lines of Berry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan (before he was corrupted by the necessities of Congress). Primarily states rights over strong central government. | ||
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| + | I had written out 2 pages of issues where Democrats and/or Republicans are doing things to the detriment of our freedoms, demonstrating their elitist views, but that's half the problem. The focus shouldn't be about who is doing what wrong, it should be about what is "right" and how to get there. | ||
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| + | It appears to me the current goal of both parties is to fear-monger: get people to focus purely on what the other side is doing wrong instead of focusing on what they will do right. Much of the electorate has become apathetic; they think their vote doesn't matter, they hate the negative campaigning, they're sick of the he said/she said, etc., and it takes someone like Ron Paul, saying what he will do to help instead of what his opponent is doing to hurt, to get them interested in politics again. | ||