Talk:Bush neoconservative/archive

Under President Clinton, a similar list could apply to most Democrats. Does that make them "neolibs", "socialists", or is the Democrat party just really that far left?

• the US Invasion of Iraq (And Haiti, and Somalia, and Bosnia)
• President William J. Clinton
• the precedence of presidential authority over constitutional law
• the actions of the president are above the law (sexual assault, perjury, etc.)
• big government spending for political ends

Midian 12:06, 30 August 2006 (EDT)

Woozle replies

I'm not sure I am understanding some of your points above. Overall, you seem to be saying that there was a similar breakaway cabal during the Clinton years, and so there should be a similar term for them. However, during the Clinton administration there was not, as far as I am aware, such a huge gap between Democratic/liberal ideals and the actual actions of elected officials in the Democratic party (including Clinton) as there is now between Republican/conservative ideals and the actual actions of elected officials in the Republican party -- especially at the very top. If I need to spell out the details of that gap, please let me know.

Replies to other specific points, which may not be on target because I'm not sure what you're getting at:

• The US did not invade Iraq under Clinton, and The Gulf War (we fought Iraq but did not invade) was approved by the UN. My understanding is that the Bosnia thing was also approved by the UN, went extremely well (having actually been planned beforehand), cost not a single American life, put Europe at peace for the first time in 3000 years, and greatly improved foreign impressions of America to the point where they still love Clinton over there, even after all the nonsense we've pulled under the Bush regime. Hardly the actions of a cabal. (I'm guessing that you also don't approve of Clinton's actions with regard to Haiti and Somalia, but I need more information.)
• Clinton did not, as far as I am aware, ever claim that presidential authority should be above the law -- not ever, and certainly not to the extent that Bush is openly doing now.
• Clinton may have abused the appeal of his rank as president for personal gain (very personal -- not monetary, just sexual favors, and as far as I know he never actually abused his power as president, despite numerous Republican investigations which did not result in a single indictment), but this seems very minor compared to Bush's blatant abuses of power. (Again, let me know if I need to spell this out... much of it is on the George W. Bush page.)
• As I understand it, Bush is far more guilty of "big government spending for political ends" than any previous president, much less Clinton.

It seems relevant to have a term to distinguish this specific bunch of so-called conservatives from real conservatives because they really only pay lip-service to a few favorite conservative causes (gay-bashing, prayer, worshipping the flag...) without actually being conservative at heart (saving money and cutting taxes, the rule of law, not engaging in "empire-building"...). Although obviously not a conservative myself, I would take Bush Senior or even the Reagan administration over these guys; at least they were arguably sincere.

Would you rather have a leader who is dishonest in his personal life, or one who is dishonest about his intentions for the country? Would you rather have a leader who can't keep his pants on, or a leader who deliberately leads his country towards disaster?

On the wrong road

Just because Bush (43) is a horrible president doesn't make Clinton squeeky clean. Clinton's "personal life" was put on display by HIM in the White House. Sexual harassment in the workplace would get any normal businessman fired, and the company sued for millions in damages if it did not react quickly enough. Then perjuring himself during his deposition while under oath, using his position to obstruct justice. The only reason he was not impeached was the vote on party lines. To impeach the president would have given the Democrat party a black eye, so they went against the law and allowed Clinton to be above the law.

Setting the precedent for the president being above the law, is it any wonder why the Republicans, with a majority in the House and Senate think they can do the same?

The Democrats really shouldn't complain about the road we are on when they are the ones who took the wrong turn in the first place. I can only hope that someday we get back on the right path, but the mixed apathy and disdain of the populace for politics and politicians will prevent that from happening anytime soon. Midian 13:31, 1 September 2006 (EDT)

Woozle replies

1. How did Clinton set a precedent for the President being above the law? He did not, as I understand it, use his Presidential powers to evade investigation of any of the things of which he was accused; he apparently lied under oath, but it doesn't take Presidential powers to do that. You say he used "his position to obstruct justice"; I have heard this accusation with regard to Clinton before, but have never been clear on the details (feel free to start that page).
2. It sounds like you are arguing that Clinton placed the presidency above the law and therefore he was the one that "started it", and therefore it is the Democrats who "took the wrong turn in the first place". If this is the case...
   • The suggestion that Clinton placed the presidency above the law is a point which is arguable but not settled; if this is the point you are arguing, there should be a page for further discussion.
   • Even if Clinton did make the first move in this direction, GWB has taken it to an entirely different and much more dangerous level.
   • Even if you argue that Clinton's bad behavior is morally equivalent to GWB's apparent attempt to convert the United States into a religious kleptocracy, all you are saying is "Clinton did it first!", i.e. two wrongs make a right.