View source for Abortion/profit/debate/raw

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''This is an [[page type::archive]] of a discussion which originally took place on the [[abortion]] page. It is being kept intact and unedited for reference purposes, e.g. to avoid misrepresentation.''
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** [http://www.abortionfacts.com/dr_willke/connector_july_98.asp The Truth About the Abortion Business]
*** {{anonuser|166.89.220.56}} (who posted this link) says: "It's all about the money, and the damage (physical and mental) is ignored."
**** Right. How many rich abortion doctors do you know? How many money-hungry people take jobs where they are likely to get shot at and killed, have their businesses vandalized and destroyed, and face angry right-wing protesters on a regular basis? {{woozle/init}}
***** 7 abortion doctors killed in 15 years, while tragic, does not make the job any more dangerous than bus driver.
****** Some numbers for this, please? How many abortion doctors are there, how many murders, and what is the fatality rate for bus drivers? Also, how does the murder rate of abortion doctors compare with the rate of abortions vs. live births? (If it's the same or higher, then you could say the same of abortions: tragic, but not any worse than bus driver fatalities.) --[[User:Woozle|Woozle]] 22:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
******* Most recent statistics I can find[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/us/01tiller.html] states 4 [abortion doctor murders] since 1993. Every death is tragic, yet this does not make the job more dangerous than policemen (150 deaths per year [http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/1999/Jun/wk5/art05.htm]). While the chance of death is something to think about when deciding your profession, it seems obvious monetary gain overwhelms that decision.
******# The comparison with police fatalities is somewhat more valid than bus-driver deaths, but all that this shows is that abortion doctors do not face greater mortal danger than policemen (...which is probably false, as far as personal risk: there are far fewer abortion doctors than police -- and I suspect the numbers go down another order of magnitude if you look only at late-term abortion doctors). Quite aside from the fact that a doctor living in a civilized country should ''never'' be in danger from anything but her/his patients and their illnesses, abortion clinic doctors and workers face [[:File:2009-01-26 abortion clinic incidents.ods|much more frequent incidents]] of vandalism, picketing, and other implied threats which are bound to be extremely stressful &ndash; and which may even target their homes and loved ones, rather than being restricted to the workplace. 
******# More to the point, though: How does this lead you to the conclusion that monetary gain is the primary factor in deciding to become an abortion doctor? None of the information you have presented relates to this. Do you have data on the salaries of abortion doctors? How do they compare with similarly-skilled doctors who do not perform adoptions? Take [[2009-05-31 Abortion Doctor Shot to Death in Kansas Church|recently-murdered George Tiller]] as an example: "In addition to protests outside his clinic, his house and his church, Dr. Tiller had once seen his clinic bombed; in 1993, an abortion opponent shot him in both arms. He was also the defendant in a series of legal challenges intended to shut down his operations..." If he was only in it for the money, don't you think he would have changed specialties over a decade ago? I'd be very surprised indeed if you can come up with a single example of an abortion doctor who wouldn't do better materially by staying out of abortions.
****** This comparison is not valid; a murder is far more tragic than an accidental death in the line of duty, and that comparison also does not take into account the regular ''threat'' of harm and actual material vandalism committed.
****** Presuming your comparison is accurate, my point still stands: abortion doctors are not in it for the money.
******* So why do they do what they know is permanently damaging to both the developing human and the mother when there are far better options available for 99% of the cases?
******** How do you know there are far better options available in 99% of the cases? (And what are those options?)
**** ''What'' physical and mental damage?
***** If you argue against some abortions on the basis of physical/mental damage to the mother, then you must also support abortions when they are done to ''preserve'' the mother's physical or mental health.
****** Obviously. This isn't about ideology, but about the ACTUAL well-being of fellow humans, both walking, and gestating.
***** Post-abortion depression occurs in the majority who undergo abortion. While not as common, the inability to conceive after an abortion is another known side effect.
****** My understanding is that women seeking abortions are warned of these side-effects, and still consider them preferable to the side-effects of attempting to carry the child to term.
*** Article is an interview with [[Eric Harrah]], purportedly a former "abortion clinic chain operator" (is there really such a thing as an "abortion clinic chain"?) and now a Christian ''(which of course makes his testimony highly suspect, "reformed" Christians being notorious for making stuff up -{{woozle/init}})''
**** His Chritianity is in doubt, he currently professes to no longer follow Christ, however, his abortion stance is the same: Pro-life after having been a planter of many abortion clinics in the Northeast.
*** AbortionFacts.com is a project of an organization called [[Heritage House 76]] ([http://www.hh76.com/ web site]), ostensibly a pro-life organization ([http://www.hh76.com/mission.asp mission statement])