Difference between revisions of "Talk:Abortion"

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(→‎Eugenics: woozle replies)
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"[[wikipedia:Eugenics|Eugenics]]", as I understand it, is based on the idea of "improving the species" by selective breeding – choosing which people are allowed to reproduce, and with whom they will do so – and forced sterilization. Both of these tools involve coercion and control from outside. Abortion, on the other hand, is under the control of the person seeking the abortion... so I'm not really seeing the connection. --[[User:Woozle|Woozle]] 18:50, 28 July 2006 (EDT)
 
"[[wikipedia:Eugenics|Eugenics]]", as I understand it, is based on the idea of "improving the species" by selective breeding – choosing which people are allowed to reproduce, and with whom they will do so – and forced sterilization. Both of these tools involve coercion and control from outside. Abortion, on the other hand, is under the control of the person seeking the abortion... so I'm not really seeing the connection. --[[User:Woozle|Woozle]] 18:50, 28 July 2006 (EDT)
 
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== Midian replies ==
 
Selective breeding is part of it. Preventing the "undesireables" from breeding, or killing their offspring, is also necessary to work toward a majority of the "master race." From your own linked article (you should have read it) "Eugenics has, from the very beginning, meant many different things to many different people. Historically the term has been used to cover everything ''from prenatal care for mothers to forced sterilization and euthanasia''."  "from...to" indicates everything in between.
 
Selective breeding is part of it. Preventing the "undesireables" from breeding, or killing their offspring, is also necessary to work toward a majority of the "master race." From your own linked article (you should have read it) "Eugenics has, from the very beginning, meant many different things to many different people. Historically the term has been used to cover everything ''from prenatal care for mothers to forced sterilization and euthanasia''."  "from...to" indicates everything in between.
  
 
If you can convince pregnant mothers their only choice is abortion, that's one method of preventing them from being born, saving killing them later (euthenasia). Murder is murder. Cutting of the umbilical cord does not a person make. [[User:Midian|Midian]] 18:58, 28 July 2006 (EDT)
 
If you can convince pregnant mothers their only choice is abortion, that's one method of preventing them from being born, saving killing them later (euthenasia). Murder is murder. Cutting of the umbilical cord does not a person make. [[User:Midian|Midian]] 18:58, 28 July 2006 (EDT)
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== Woozle replies ==
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(Responding in a bit of a hurry; I did skim the article for references to abortion, but didn't have a chance to search thoroughly. Still, just because a eugenics program might use abortion as a tool does not mean that all abortions are part of a program of eugenics.)
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I would agree that '''coerced''' abortion would be a problem worth fighting. The choice whether or not to have an abortion should be strictly the mother's, at least as long as she is legally an adult. I would also add that there certainly can be economic pressures which come to bear more strongly on some groups (e.g. poor people) than others.  This imbalance ''could be seen'' as being deliberately engineered to decrease the population of certain groups (i.e. eugenics), but that doesn't mean it actually ''is''.
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It sounds like you're suggesting that there actually is some kind of eugenics program in effect, and that this program is using abortion as one of its major tools. I'd really like to see more about this, if you have any links or references or anything, because that's very much the kind of thing I like to try and bring to light here (whether or not I agree that it's happening).
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And finally... "murder is murder"... we need to define our terms. Would I be wrong in thinking that you define "murder" as "the killing of a human", and that you agree that neither a human sperm nor an human egg qualifies as "a human", but believe that the two together, once a successful fertilization has occurred, is "a human"?
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--[[User:Woozle|Woozle]] 19:52, 28 July 2006 (EDT)

Revision as of 23:52, 28 July 2006

While the extremists of the pro-life crowd has been hypocritical, killing doctors, blowing up clinics, etc. the majority are not like that at all, and there is even one lady (sorry, can't find a link right now) who is simply purchasing abortion clinics and making them wellness clinics.

The pro-choice movement has been smart with the creation of Planned Parenthood whose goal of pushing abortion as the primary option has been working wonders. Win the war without firing a single shot. Eugenics by any other name... Midian 16:12, 28 July 2006 (EDT)

Eugenics

"Eugenics", as I understand it, is based on the idea of "improving the species" by selective breeding – choosing which people are allowed to reproduce, and with whom they will do so – and forced sterilization. Both of these tools involve coercion and control from outside. Abortion, on the other hand, is under the control of the person seeking the abortion... so I'm not really seeing the connection. --Woozle 18:50, 28 July 2006 (EDT)

Midian replies

Selective breeding is part of it. Preventing the "undesireables" from breeding, or killing their offspring, is also necessary to work toward a majority of the "master race." From your own linked article (you should have read it) "Eugenics has, from the very beginning, meant many different things to many different people. Historically the term has been used to cover everything from prenatal care for mothers to forced sterilization and euthanasia." "from...to" indicates everything in between.

If you can convince pregnant mothers their only choice is abortion, that's one method of preventing them from being born, saving killing them later (euthenasia). Murder is murder. Cutting of the umbilical cord does not a person make. Midian 18:58, 28 July 2006 (EDT)

Woozle replies

(Responding in a bit of a hurry; I did skim the article for references to abortion, but didn't have a chance to search thoroughly. Still, just because a eugenics program might use abortion as a tool does not mean that all abortions are part of a program of eugenics.)

I would agree that coerced abortion would be a problem worth fighting. The choice whether or not to have an abortion should be strictly the mother's, at least as long as she is legally an adult. I would also add that there certainly can be economic pressures which come to bear more strongly on some groups (e.g. poor people) than others. This imbalance could be seen as being deliberately engineered to decrease the population of certain groups (i.e. eugenics), but that doesn't mean it actually is.

It sounds like you're suggesting that there actually is some kind of eugenics program in effect, and that this program is using abortion as one of its major tools. I'd really like to see more about this, if you have any links or references or anything, because that's very much the kind of thing I like to try and bring to light here (whether or not I agree that it's happening).

And finally... "murder is murder"... we need to define our terms. Would I be wrong in thinking that you define "murder" as "the killing of a human", and that you agree that neither a human sperm nor an human egg qualifies as "a human", but believe that the two together, once a successful fertilization has occurred, is "a human"?

--Woozle 19:52, 28 July 2006 (EDT)