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-<noinclude>[[category:data.links]]</noinclude>{{#vardefine:keylist|}}{{data.pair|Date|2002-11-16}}
+<hide>
-{{data.pair|Topics|\Church of Scientology}}
+<let name=data index=Date>1995-09-30</let>
-{{data.pair|URL|2=http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/docs/heber-kfi-transcript.txt}}
+<let name=data index=Source>Holysmoke.org</let>
-{{data.pair|Title|Heber on KFI}}
+<let name=data index=Topics>\Church of Scientology</let>
-{{data.pair|Text|KFI 640 host Jane Norris interviews [[Heber Jentzsch]] (President of the [[Church of Scientology]] International), Priscilla Coates of the Cult Awareness Network, and  Dennis Erlich, recovered Scientology member.}}<noinclude>
+<let name=data index=URL>http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/docs/heber-kfi-transcript.txt</let>
-{{data.link.footer}}
+<let name=data index=Title>Heber on KFI</let>
-The transcript was copied-and-pasted from an email (which stated that it was released into the public domain); formatting is needed.
+<let name=data index=TextShort>KFI 640 host Jane Norris interviews [[Heber Jentzsch]] (President of the [[Church of Scientology]] International), Priscilla Coates of the Cult Awareness Network, and  Dennis Erlich, recovered Scientology member.</let>
-==Transcript==
+<let name=data index=Text>[[/text|complete text]]</let>
-<pre>
+</hide><if not flag=including><let name=docat val=1 /><noinclude>{{:project:code/show/link}}</noinclude></if>
-[[Editorial comments]]
-[Inferred words]
-(Characterizations, nuances of speech)
-*simple emphasis*
-Ellipses "..." are omissions, "ums" and "ers," pauses, etc.
-Repeated phrases may either be rendered or replaced with "..."
-"--" may variously represent interruption points, or occasionally hold a
-place in a column... Oh, figure it out for yourself, and don't expect
-perfect consistency.
-(about 0:25 of pleasant fusion-jazz riff.  nice)
-Jane Norris, host:  This is KFI 640, more stimulating talk-radio, at
-:05 in the evening, we continue our conversation about Scientology; we
-have with us in the studio, President of the Church of Scientology
-International, Heber Jentzsch; also with us is Priscilla Coates of the
-Cult Awareness Network; and joining us now, on the air, is-- Dennis...
-(struggles with name, he helps) Erlich.  And, Dennis, you were once a
-member of Scientology.
-Dennis Erlich:  Yes, I was.  For fifteen years.
-JANE:  Okay, and tell me about your experiences in the Church.
-DENNIS:  (begins slowly, seems self-concious) Well, when I (sighs) first
-contacted Scientology, it was 1968.  And, I was 19 years old.  Uhhm, I
-walked in, and they took me on a tour, much like the tour that you took
-today....
-JANE:  Saturday.
-DENNIS: Er, Saturday.
-HEBER:  That didn't even exist, then.
-[[(the moment is weighed.  "Saturday didn't exist in 1968," or, "No one
-could get a tour back then."  Go figure]]
-JANE:  Well.     Go ahead.
-DENNIS:  Uhmn, am I going to be interrupted while I tell my story?
-JANE:  No.  I hope not.
-DENNIS:  Uhuh, I appreciate it--
-JANE: (to Heber) Give him an opportunity.
-HEBER:  Okay.
-DENNIS:  We've heard *plenty* from Heber, and he'll have--
-JANE:  And, he'll have, believe me, he'll have an opportunity to respond
-to what you say.
-HEBER:  You'll hear some more! (laughs) That's the way it works, Dennis.
-(laughs heartily)
-DENNIS:  Quite honestly, my stomach is churning, from the fact that..
-(pause)  This is a line..  His lines have been pumped into people's
-heads, without any rebuttal for long enough.  Ah, Scientology is a
-series of facades, and he is the outermost of those facades.
-JANE:  (impatiently, cattleprod) Explain what you mean.
-DENNIS:  Well, erhm, when I came into Scientology, I was toured around,
-and I was told..  Lots of claims were made for Scientology, that it was
-the road to total freedom, that it would do all of these things, that it
-would basically turn one into God, or, a god.
-JANE:  And you obviously felt that that was an acceptable thing for you,
-for a time.
-DENNIS:  Well, you have to remember that I was 19 years old, I was
-naive, and at the time, like most people who become.. infatuated with
-this type of cult, I was undergoing some personal difficulties for which
-I was seeking solutions.  And so, the claim of these ultimate
-solutions.. uh, it was like.. having found.. water in a desert.
-JANE:  So, you found some form of.. some saving grace.. you felt that
-Scientology was the answer, for a time.
-DENNIS:  I felt that any group that would make such claims, would have
-to be incredibly good, or incredibly evil.  And, after having the tour,
-and.. having this all explained to me, I made the statement that, if
-Scientology is what it claims to be, then I should do everything I could
-possibly do to help it.  But if it isn't, then I should do everything I
-could possibly do to destroy it.
-JANE:  How long were you involved?
-DENNIS:  Fifteen years.
-JANE:  What made you stop?
-DENNIS:  Well, I found out that, really, it was just a criminal
-conspiracy.
-JANE:  (impatiently focused) Explain what you mean.
-DENNIS: (uncomfortable) Well--(sighs)  Lots of the activities of
-Scientology, deal in deception of either individuals or governments, so,
-in that sense, it is a conspiracy.
-JANE:  How were you deceived?
-DENNIS:  I myself was deceived on the basis that this was a system of
-answers, rather than a system of belief.  Um, Scientology claims that
-you don't have to believe anything, and yet, you have to suspend your
-disbelief, otherwise you are being critical.
-JANE:  What was so hard for you to believe?
-DENNIS:  (picking up pace) Well, there wasn't anything
-that was really 'hard for me to believe,'
-because it's presented on a gradient.         JANE: In other words--
---A little at a time.                         ...Okay.
-Umm, ultimately, after fifteen years
-of... what I would say is very
-dedicated service, to Scientology -- working,
-in the morning til 10:30-midnight, at night
-seven days a week, for $17.50 an hour..
-I mean, $17.50 a *week*, excuse me--         JANE: 17 dollars
---50 cents a week, that's,                   and 50 cents?
-when we got paid at all. That's
-standard pay, in the sea org.
-JANE:  But, you were taken
-care of, as a member?                DENNIS:  Uhh.. Taken care of,
-Your housing, and your food--        in terms of housed--  Yeah.
-Okay.
-HEBER: (pointedly) And your medical, and your clothes and so forth.
-JANE:  Did you--  How much did you donate to the CoS?
-DENNIS:  Fifteen of my years.  And, in terms of money?  Probably
-$1,700.00-- maybe 3,000 at most.  But, I was on staff.  So, as far as
-the.. As far as how I was deceived; Scientology claims to be a system
-which-- by which, you can achieve certain things.  And those things are
-only achieved in one's own mind.  Those things.. are only a result of
-one's own belief system.
-JANE:  So your success in life is gauged by how much you know, about
-Scientology, and how far you have come along the path?
-DENNIS:  Exactly. Exactly.
-JANE:  Okay.
-DENNIS: And, within that framework, you can achieve status, but within
-society as a whole, you're segregated, from society, by the belief
-system itself.
-JANE:  So, you really don't get to inter..  When you're involved in the
-Church of Scientology, employed by..  How much interaction do you get
-with the rest of the planet?
-DENNIS:  Well, really, what it amounts to is the average staff member
-only does Scientology, and has a short time off.  The deceptive part of
-it is that Scientology really deals with exorcism, and that is what the
-basis of it is, Hubbard talked about that, in the most advanced tapes,
-that he gave on L-12, that exorcism *is* what you're dealing with--
-HEBER: (softly but quite urgently)
-Erm, he's had
-about seven minutes, can I talk        JANE:  Absolutely.  Give him
-some time here?                        another minute here, until we
-He's had about seven                   get through through this exorcism
-minutes, you know..                    thing.  (to Dennis,) Exorcism?
-Well..
-[[Timeline: Dennis has had about five-and-a-half minutes to talk,
-but, interestingly, Heber's interjection occurs almost precisely at the
--minute mark of the clip, which begins with 5 seconds of dead air, and
-about 20 seconds of nice fusion rock/jazz riff, the host's intro, etc,
-and with neither interruptions by Heber nor the recovery from them
-charged against Dennis' time.  Further notations are made in this
-format, "5:30/7:00"]]
-DENNIS:  Exorcism, that's the basis of Scientology, and, a person
-doesn't find that out until he's spent tens of thousands of dollars.
-That that's what he's being prepared for.
-JANE: What are we
-exorcising?                 HEBER:  Well, he's--
-                            He's--
-DENNIS:  You're exor-       (begins chuckling forcefully)
-cising ss--  You're
-exorcising-- entities--     Heh, yeh-- Eh, lemme,
-who are--  supposedly       lemme-- Well, you know,
-giving you--                Hold on a second--
-                            He knew he wanted--
-JANE: (sarcastically)       No-no-- (sternly)
-"Hold on" for Heber--       He's had
-(Abruptly shouts)           eight minutes--
-LET HIM FINISH here!        [[5:50/7:30]]                DENNIS:  He's
---                          --                           just going--
---                          He's had eight               to interrupt--
-(pleading)                  minutes, he's                --
-Well, we're just            just sitting                  --
-getting to the              there going--                 (chuckling)
-good part here,             Naww, I'm-- naw, he--         Now, really--
-hold on!  Heber,            He's-- He's talked--          This is--
-please! Please,             You've had eight minutes,     This is what
-let him finish!             Dennis.  Dennis.  Dennis--    needs to be
---                          You know, wh----              said. This is
---                                                        exactly what
-Now, wait a second.                                       needs to be
-                                                          said.
-[[Jane is significantly peeved with Heber's behavior, unbecoming
-of a guest.  She plonks him.  Dennis is telling Priscilla about
-Heber's tactics of breaking in. Heber's mike is momentarily muted,
-but he can be heard faintly]]
-                                   What he wants to do--
-                                   [[mic opens]] Okay, you're
-JANE:  I'm gonna *ask* you        gonna cut it off, well you--
-to cooperate with me and          [[mic cut again, he frets on
-let him *finish*!                 about "looking at the clock,"
-                                  and how "it's been ten minutes,"
-                                  etc]]
-                                           [[5:50/7:43]]
-DENNIS: And please let me finish
-what I'm saying!  This is what is
-deceptive about this cult, ahem:
-The fact of the matter is that it       HEBER:  Naw, I-- You know--
-deals with exorcism.  The cult,         Look--  you are talk--"Cult--"
-from beginning to end, deals with       It's not a cult, you know it's
-exorcism-- It certainly *is* a cult,    not a cult--
-and I've been inside that cult,         --
-and I know, that it is a cult.          No.  You know what it is, and
-There's mind control that goes on,      it's not a cult.
-because the-- (chuckles) I was in       --
-charge, of quality control, at their    --
-Florida Land Base.  And I *know*.       HEBER: Well, that's not my
---                                      position, and you know that
---                                      every church in the world has
-I was posted by Hubbard himself.        a quality controlll...
-[[Heber tends to orchestrate his speech, sonorously and stacatto-like,
-by turns, when he is talking over someone.  It's almost like a dance]]
-JANE:  Hold on a moment.       HEBER: No!  Wait a minute!  Let's--
-Now, deal--                    He's had thirteen minutes [[6:01/8:26]]
-Oh!? *NO*!                     here and I just wish--
-thirteen minutes!?  No!        Well, I'm looking at the clock up here--
-[[No, indeed.  Since Heber's "8 minutes" time-check, Dennis has had
-just a further *eleven seconds* free to pursue his point; the
-remainder, not 5 minutes, but fourty-three seconds, was consumed
-by Heber's badgering over the single hot-button word, "CULT," and
-his fulminating disagreement over what time it was.
-Just so you notice too.]]
-DENNIS: Listen, I've heard--         JANE:  Let's just ask-- Hold on.
-*his* line--for years.               Both of you, hold on!
-HEBER:  Wait a minute, fifteen ye-I've been in Scientology twenty-four
-years.  And that's a lot longer than he is.  [[Let the record show that
-Dennis is snickering]]  Now he indicates that he was in for 15 years,
-obviously he chose to leave.  And, Mister Erlich, I think you realize
-that, when you were in Scientology, that we were opposed to a number of
-things.  We were also opposed to psychiatry, I don't believe
-you support it, ah, I don't believe that you as an individual, uh, can
-rea--  Look, here's the point: we can put all kinds of people on here--
-DENNIS: (demands) Well,
-Let's talk about exorcism!
-                                            HEBER: Let's talk about--
-PRISCILLA:  The point is that BTs--         Let's talk about *you*,
-                                            Let's talk about *you*,
-DENNIS:  Let's talk about the deception.    Let's talk about *him*,
-                                            Let's talk--
-JANE: (brightly)  I'd like to               I-- Once--
-talk about the exorcism.                    If--
-                                            If--
-DENNIS:  Yes, let's please discuss          If we discuss,  If we
-that.  Let's discuss these beliefs          discuss--  Let's--
-that are not-- that you have to             Hold on!
-pay thousands and thousands of              --
-dollars to find out about.                  No!  This is absolutely,
---                                          you know, his fabrication
---                                          of what Scientology is!
-That is what it is!
-And you can't deny it!
-HEBER: (giddily) Well, listen, you know,
-*I* watched a show the other night,
-with Father Lavarre[[?]], On ABC TV,    DENNIS:  Oh! Now we're gonna--
-you know-- and if you                   --hear some other--
-want to talk about--                    --garbage.
-Hold--                                  Let's talk about the exorcism!
-Hold on!  Let's talk about *you*,       --
-as an individual, and,                  --
-the destructiveness that you have       --
-aimed at a religion because you're      --
-no longer a part of it!                 It has nothing to do with that!
-It's easy to find--                     Has nothing to do with that
-You know--                              at all!
-It has everything                       No, it doesn't.  It has to do
-to do with that--                       with the deception
-                                        that goes on!  It has to do
-                                        with the facades *you* put up!
-JANE:  All right, *nobody*
-is getting their *point*       HEBER:  He's just gonna
-across-- --by yell--           override me--  Override--
-                                 --
-DENNIS:  I have a *right*            --
-to talk, because I spent                --
-fifteen years of my life,                 --
-the best years of my life!                HEBER:  I spent 24 years--
-Deceiving-- deceiving people              --
-on behalf of you and your organization!   --
-                                          --
-HEBER:  Naw, I think it was very clear,
-in his early statement, he said,
-he thought it was, you know,
-he either joined it because
-it was the greatest, uh, good,
-or, he thought it was the greatest
-evil, and he would attack it--        DENNIS: --And it is the greatest
-And you spent 15 years--              evil.  It's like the NAZI Party
-(stunned) Now *THAT!*                 in America!
-                                      (unrepentant)
-JANE:  All right!                     That's gonna cost me?
-Gentlemen,  I've gotta--              Go ahead!  Do something!  That's
-I've gotta st--                       my opinion and I have a right
---                                    to it!
-I've gotta stop you here,
-we're gonna take a break!
-On KFI, AM 640... more stimulating talk radio?
-[[file kfi7.rm]]
-JANE:  ...our conversation about Scientology continues, Heber Jentzsch,
-President of the Church of Scientology, along with Dennis Erlich, former
-Scientologist -- We got into a pretty good argument about exorcism --
-HEBER: (horns in) And about NAZIS, and he's talkin' about NAZIS, and I
-wanna handle that because that particular allegation-- he knows very
-well-- [Dennis snickers]  --Yeh-okay-- he knows *very well* that the
-[CoS] has dealt very strongly with this issue, and he also knows that--
-DENNIS:  I also know that it's a
-fascist organization.  Period.               HEBER: Okay--
-And I know that I have a right               Let's just deal with that--
-to that opinion, because I know              --
-the fascist nature of it.  I                 --
-know that people on the outside              --
-like Travolta *don't* know what's            --
-going on inside of it, like                  --
-Kirstie Ally-- they live in the--            They're personal friends
-they're waltzed around the outside           of mine--
-by people like you who show them a           Personal friends of mine--
-front-- they don't know about what           Personal friends of mine--
-goes on on the inside, they don't            --
-know about these                             They're--
-RPFers who are locked up, they               Let's just talk
-don't know about a *lot* of things           about--
-that go on on the inside.                    Dennis,
-"Dennis" nothing-- "Heber,"                  Dennis, Dennis!
-when are you going to stop locking           You're having a problem
-people up?  When are you going to            with communication, Dennis!
-stop these things?                           Dennis, Dennis, Dennis,
---                                           you're just having a real
-*I'm* having a real problem, yeah,           problem here, now let's
-I am having a real problem listening         just address-- You-- It's
-to the garbage you're putting out!           very-- Yah, I understand
-(exasperated chuckle) You "understand."      Dennis.  Now listen.  You
-I'm having a problem with the fact           know the problem is you're
-that you lie, and you don't even *care*!     having here-- Dennis,
-It doesn't even make a *difference* to       Dennis,
-you, that you lie.                           Dennis, you know,
-                                             you're sounding a bit wild
-                                             here, (lowers voice) lemme
-                                             just calm down--
-PRISCILLA: Heber, when are you               I-- (becoming stern)
-going to stop the RPF?  How many             Hey, Dennis--
-people are in the RPF right now?             Dennis.  Calm down.
-                                             Dennis, listen:
-PRISCILLA: (stage whisper) It's 'Priscilla.'
-Dennis (agrees):  That's Priscilla talking, not Dennis--
-HEBER:  Dennis,  I'm talking to Dennis, but I'm going to get this
-particular thing taken up about the NAZIS, you know, first of all our
-organization has exposed the fact a number of NAZI individuals
-involved in various organizations, running drugs into this country.  And
-right now-- (Dennis interjects, unintelligible) --You bet your life.
-And-- the National President of the National Association of the Chiefs
-of Police has, really, endorsed our information, because we have exposed
-those particular NAZI elements.  And, you know Priscilla may remember,
-Margaret Singer is quoted as one of the, ah, key people, about various
-religions and so forth; Margaret Singer was, along with the Patron Saint
-of CAN, Mr. Lifton, attending a conference in 1978, and here's what CAN
-gets terribly terrified about: We expose the fact that those people were
-attending the German Union of Child Psychiatry, on religion--
-DENNIS: (exasperated) Come on, let's get back to Scientology!
-HEBER:  Nawwp, let's finish it up here, we're talking about us, because
-we are doing social reform areas, and in that particular conference, uh,
-Singer was there, it was sponsored by the German Union of Child
-Psychiatry, and by one of these front groups for deprogramming.  The
-German Union of Child Psychiatry had several interesting members,
-including Hildegard Hetzer, who ordered 25,000 children to their deaths!
-You see, out of that conference -- in, in the concentration camps -- and
-out of that conference.... Ah, if you're asleep, Priscilla, why don't
-you just, uh, you know, just lay over on the side, folks, she's falling
-asleep!  The point was that we brought up that information, and, Singer,
-you know was involved in it; I think that the fact that *we* have
-exposed NAZIS is a terrible terrifying thing to these people--
-JANE: (incredulous but perky) Are you claiming that Dennis is a NAZI?
-[[Dennis cracks up]]
-HEBER: I-- No, Dennis claimed that, Dennis claimed that.  I didn't claim
-Dennis is a NAZI.  I claimed th--
-DENNIS:  No, I claim that your *organization* is *as* fascist as the
-NAZIS were and as dangerous as the NAZIS were before they came to power,
-and I want to see to it that they *never*-- there never *is* a world
-that is ruled by Ethics Officers and the Sea Org, because if there is,
-it'll be just as fascist as Hitler would have made it.  Thank you.
-JANE:  Let's take a telephone call before we continue this--
-[[she giggles, as Heber storms on..]]
-HEBER: I think that people know
-me well enough to know that I have
-done more on that issue--             DENNIS:  People know that you lie!
-People know, Dennis, I have done
-more to handle that than you ever have--      JANE:  All right--
-(Heber shifts gears)
-And, I tell you what: You know I mean,
-here's the Law Enforcement News, on CAN,
-saying, you know, you people are really,
-uh, you know, something should be checked out about you--
-DENNIS:  We're talking about Scientology, not CAN.
-HEBER:  We're talking about both.  You're here: you put your
-organization on the line!
-DENNIS:  I'm not a part of CAN.         HEBER:  You --
-I'm just an individual who got          Where do you live?
-raped spiritually by Scientology.       Where do you live--
-And there have been plenty of others    Well, I will tell you--
-who got raped too.
-Heber (engages 4WD-Lo): There's
-*physical* rape by members of CAN!
-And, you can talk about spiritual rape,
-which is a rather subjective concept--        DENNIS:  It is!  It's a
-I think the Spiritual Rape of Man is          very subjective concept.
-done by Psychiatry, and you know that, and
-you know that I oppose that kind of *rape*,
-because we've exposed it.
---
-All-all right              JANE:  All right,
-let's go                   let's go
-to the telephhonne!        to a telephone call here...
-[[editor's note.  This is bizzare.  Heber abruptly echoes the host
-as she breaks in, and he does it deliberately.  After listening to this
-passage numerous times, without paying much attention to it (it actually
-sounds like a wrinkled bit of tape at first) but then.. "no, it can't
-be.. but why would a workman be carrying a length of sewer pipe past
-Jane's microphone at that exact instant...." But, seriously, there's
-something in the "Reporter TRs" that calls for repeating words back at
-the reporter, as a means of establishing dominance.  Not that there's
-much chance of that here, but Heber is reaching ever more desperately,
-for every monkey-wrench in his toolbox]]
-JANE:  ...let's go to Jean,
-who is calling from Hacienda Heights, Jean, you're on KFI.
-CALLER:  Hi.
-JANE:  Hi.
-HEBER:  What a battle, huh?  Here you are, Jean. (laughs)
-                                                      --
-CALLER: Well, I'm not a former member                 --
-of Scientology, but my mother was,                    Uh-huh..
-and she spent about nine years in the
-organization, and after they milked her
-for just about every cent they could, she
-finally came to her senses and left, and, uh--
-DENNIS:  Good for her.
-CALLER:  We're very, very pleased, yes, we really are.  She was working
-and, um, my father had just died, and she had a home paid for, and they
-came in there, and managed to coerce her to take out a loan for the full
-amount, or, for whatever amount she could get it for, and uh they also
-signed her up for a bunch of classes, that she never took, and they have
-never yet paid her back the money--
-HEBER:  Fine, then, if that          DENNIS:  Yeah, that is a
-is true then write--  No--           problem, getting your money back.
-Wait a minute.
-If that's true, write me--
-CALLER:  She has written, and written--    HEBER:  Write to me--
-And this is an interesting thing:          Write to me--
-Scientology does not accept any kind
-of certified mail, however they do
-*deliver* certified mail.
-HEBER:  Well, write to me.  I am telling you, if there's a problem
-there, write to me.
-PRISCILLA:  Do you accept certified mail, Heber?
-HEBER:  I don't have to accept a certified mail, send me a regular
-letter, what's your problem, you know?
-DENNIS:  Because it's proof--
-CALLER:  Oh, she sent many letters,
-she's been a legal secretary for many
-years, so her letters were [intact?]        HEBER:  How would y--
-and they went to all the right people,
-and she got all kinds of letters back,
-we have.. she now has an attorney
-handling it, because that was the
-only way to get any kind of--
-DENNIS:  Yep, that's right,
-that's right.
-HEBER: Fine, look-- I-- Fine.  Listen, I tell you, if there's a problem
-you can write to me, and I appreciate that-- I, you know we are the--
-PRISCILLA:  Jean, did you see the Time magazine article for May 6th?
-CALLER:  [She's in the] --Time magazine article, ma'am.
-PRISCILLA:  Time magazine?
-CALLER:  Yes she is.
-PRISCILLA: Oh-- Oh, okay.
-JANE:  Her mom is in the Time magazine article.  Why is it that I keep
-hearing these stories over and over again?  These are unsolicited calls,
-these are people calling in -- Heber -- why do we hear the same story
-over and over again?  That-- lots of money involved, and they-- once
-they leave the Church they can't seem to get a refund?
-HEBER:  I mean, this is "everybody," and we've had three calls in the
-last hour and a half-- well, ahmm, I don't think that three calls is
-exemplary of the whole thing, I know that I have a number of friends out
-there who are Scientologists, because I've lived in here in Los Angeles,
-I don't know whether those lines are available to them, or whether your
-screener's keeping them out.  I've had that happen on shows before and,
-uh-- Yeah, you laugh, Dennis--
-DENNIS:  Yeah, the great conspiracy
-theory, that we've heard for so
-long.  The government is conspiring
-against you... and, you know,
-everybody's against Scientology--          HEBER:  We stood up to
-The reason the government is against       the IRS-- We--
-you is because you're an illegal
-organization that engages in illegal
-acts.  Period.
-HEBER:  If we were an illegal
-organization, we wouldn't *be* here--      DENNIS: That's right--
-and you know that, because Scientology     And for-- for--
-has stood up against the Internal
-Revenue Service for years, and we've
-*won* against them, we've *won* against
-other countries--                          DENNIS:  You haven't won
---                                         anything.
-We have won in every single vector,
-because, *countries* have come up
-against us.  *No* group has taken
-on the IRS like we have, and
-we have *won* against the
-Internal Revenue Service,            DENNIS:  You're gonna
-and we will *continue* to win        overthrow the government,
-against them--                       I know, you guys are--
-We're not gonna overthrow the        That's what you're trying
-government, we're helping the        to do--
-government because we're solving
-the problems they have with *drugs*,
-and I tell you what, you can, you    DENNIS: (pronounces)
-can love the Internal Revenue        The problem that
-Service for its criminal *acts*--    they have with drugs!
-And-- (glibly enquiring)
-Are you on drugs right now?
-DENNIS: (under his breath, croaks) God.
-JANE: (perturbed) That is an unfair accusation--
-HEBER:  No-- I said, *are* you.  *Are* you.  *Are* you.
-JANE: (indignant) Well, he looks-- very lucid to me, Heber!
-HEBER:  Well, *fine*, I just asked--
-PRISCILLA:  Maybe we should go
-to another call.             HEBER: (in background, TR-3-ing)
-                             Let's--   *Are* you?   Dennis?
-JANE:  Yes, let's go to Jan, who's calling from Los Angeles--
-(to Heber) I think that's an unfair question.
-CALLER: (launches)  Yeah I thought the call screener *was* biased,
-seein' all these calls here.  Every call's been anti-Scientology so far,
-and I don't think that's really very fair.
-JANE: Well, you're on the air, aren't you?
-CALLER: Well, yeah, it's about time--
-JANE: Well, speak up!
-CALLER: (ponderously) --I have a couple questions--
-JANE: (not suffering fools gladly) Well, SPIT 'EM OUT! (snorts)
-CALLER:  [I've heard] very good things about your drug program,
-and also I'd like to ask Heber, what is it like to be Clear?
-[[Heber goes totally "verbal tech"]]
-HEBER: Well, I tell you what it's like to be Clear, it's the first time,
-to come walking out, you know, and look at the world for the first time,
-and feel like, there is a wonderful world out there, that there are a
-great number of people out there who are wonderful people, and I've
-gained a great number of friends because of that, and I'll tell you,
-it's a feeling of looking to the future, knowing that I will go on, as a
-spiritual being, that I will live throughout eternity.  That's what it's
-like, and feeling that it's a growing thing, an ascending thing, that uh
-there is *life*, that there is going to be a *future*, that there is
-going to be a created light of life and happiness and healthiness,
-that's what I feel like it's like for me.  And I'm glad somebody asked
-me that question, (chuckling) it's the first time I've been asked that
-on this radio show.
-JANE:  Also, she wanted to know about your drug program.
-HEBER:  The drug rehabilitation programs, uh Scientology has sponsored
-NarCONon, which is a very successful drug rehabilitation program, which
-is by the way, is suported by various governments -- in Sweden, in
-Norway, ahh, is also supported that way in Italy, and it is supported
-now in Spain, and so forth.  We have taken tens of thousands of people
-off of drugs -by the way, who are not necessarily members of the
-Church.  Its.. Just.. I have met with women whose sons lives were
-destroyed because they were on drugs.  We have taken them off of drugs.
-We have the most effective drug rehabilitation programs in the world.
-And we are now working in Chilocco, Oklahoma, with the native Americans,
-to help them come off of drugs, where they have endemic situations out
-there.
-Now, I tell you what, you know, all of this noise, all of this attack,
-all of this noise, is because we are effective, we take people off of
-drugs.  Who gets hurt by 100,000 people coming off of drugs?  Who gets
-hurt by a man who comes off of cocaine and heroin, who's making five
-robberies a day, to pay for that habit?  And then increasing the police
-protection, and increasing all the other stuff that has to go on in the
-neighborhood.  Who is hurt by that?  I- Only the people who are hurt,
-are the people who are pro-drugs.  The only people are hurt who want
-to keep people in that particular situation.  I will tell you,
-Scientology has tremendous programs, I have affidavit after affidavit,
-success stories by the millions, of people who have been helped by
-Scientology.  All of this rhetoric, all of this noise--
-PRISCILLA:  Yes.  All of this rhetoric.
-HEBER: (icily)  All of this rhetoric from my opposition here, will not
-change the fact that Scientology is the road to total freedom.  It will
-not change the fact that people are leavin-- living happier lives.
-Yes, we're attacked.  I think all great religions were attacked.  It
-hasn't been as bad as the Christians.  They *killed* them.  They threw
-them to the lions, you know?  Those people had a horrible time.  And
-they were, you know, burned by-- burned at the stake, and nailed to the
-Cross--
-DENNIS:  Don't compare Hubbard with Jesus, *please*.
-HEBER:  I would *never* compare him with Jesus--
-DENNIS: That's right--
-HEBER:  --and, I think that's *horrible* that you brought that up,
-and he would be *appalled*, because he never wanted to
-be put in that position.               --
-                                       --
-JANE:  ...Tell me, Dennis, are         HEBER:  Who *says* that?
-these programs helping people?
-DENNIS:  No, they aren't, they create a dependency that is worse than
-the dependency on drugs, they create a dependency on Scientology.
-HEBER:  Ahhh--
-DENNIS:  And, the dependency on Scientology.. is a dependency that is
-really harder to break than a plain addiction to drugs.
-HEBER:  Who said that?
-DENNIS:  *I* just said it -- didn't you hear me?
-HEBER: (stammers) Uh, I originally heard it from Jolly West, but go
-ahead--
-DENNIS:  I just said it, because I know.  I ran the program at Flag, I
-know that it creates a dependency.  The Purification rundown has no
-basis in scientific fact, they have yet to take any--
-HEBER:  What's the dependency?--  What's the dependency?
-DENNIS:  Hey-- wait, wait, I was asked a question, are you going to
-permit me to answer the question?
-JANE:  Please answer.          HEBER:  Yes.  What's the dependency?
-DENNIS:  Okay, the fact of the matter is that none of the programs,
-neither the Purification rundown nor any other thera-- quote therapy of
-Scientology has ever been demonstrated to work by the scientific method,
-and that's why-- that's why--
-HEBER:  Ahhh, ah, okay--
-DENNIS:  --It's all anecdotal.  It's all anecdotal evidence, and the
-fact is that it's never been documented that any of this stuff works at
-all, except as a placebo cure.
-HEBER:  You do not know--
-JANE:  Now, these drug cures you're talking about, are they done..
-PRISCILLA:  -- with no documentation.     HEBER:  Hold it--
-JANE: --are they done in your community only, or are they done in the
-general public, how does it work?
-HEBER:  They are done in both
-places, and-- wait a minute--    DENNIS:  They are done in a closed
-Dennis, Dennis!                  environment, and don't just-- please,
-(wheedling) Hold on!             don't 'Dennis' me!  I have something
-Okay--                           to say here too, we've listened to
-Dennis-- No.  You,               you.  Now let me talk.
-you just made some
-charges, both of you.
-Of course, now
-I've been around the world and met with the people in those programs,
-which are by the way supported by governments.  What you have found is
-that in those programs-- by the way, you've been gone for ten or fifteen
-years, I don't know how long, *but* there have been scientific studies
-done, to show that this does work--
-PRISCILLA:  They've been done by *their* people--
-HEBER:  No.  They've been done by
-other people who are not
-Scientologists--                      PRISCILLA:  By FASE, which is
-They've been done by other people--   the Scientology organization.
-Wait a minute!   *Scientific*!
-If you wanna talk--                   PRISCILLA:  And it is simply
-Priscilla--                           niacin,
-Priscilla--                           vitamins, sauna, oil, and a
-Oh! (suddenly outraged)               wee bit of exercise.
-You know, you don't want              That's all it is.  It makes you
-anyone coming off of drugs,           sweat, but it doesn't do anything.
-do you!   You - don't -
-want - anyone
-off of drugs, and that's the truth!   DENNIS:  That's an absurd charge!
-You are *for* drugs!  You are for     that's the most absurd
-drug slavery and that is exactl--     thing I've ever heard!
-You want to destroy--                 Can't you make sense,
-you want to destroy the spirit,       come on, make sense, try
-you want to destroy anything          to make sense!
-which works. Now, (calming self)      (Dennis chuckles)
-I will make sense.                                   -- Please!
-The point-- I want to come back to this--
-JANE:   I would love to come back to this, after this break; this is
-KFI, AM 640.
-[[file kfi8.rm]]
-JANE:  This is Jane Norris on KFI AM 640, more stimulating talk radio,
-yes!  We are talking about Scientology, yeah and, admittedly, we haven't
-gotten a lot of your phone calls on tonight, so we will continue after
-our guests leave at 11:00, and we will put your telephone calls on the
-air, you will get your opportunity to speak your piece, that's what KFI
-is all about.  Meanwhile we are in studio with Heber Jentzsch, President
-of the Church of Scientology International, Priscilla Coates, who is a
-member of the Cult Awareness Network, and also Dennis Erlich, a former
-Scientologist.  Heber, you were continuing....
-HEBER:  --When you talk about something being scientific, if somebody
-gets up there on a hill and they make-- something called a wheel, no
-one's seen it before, and they say "Look, this thing rolls, and it goes
-own a hill, and it rolls round and round, and it's called a wheel."
-That can be proof that it works.  When you take the fact that there's--
-there are hundreds-- ah, like a hundred-thousand or more people who've
-come off of drugs.  And those people are off of drugs very effectively,
-because, you see, there's something--
-DENNIS:  You haven't got a hundred-thousand members.
-                                             --  So, where are
-HEBER:  Well, ah, ah-- you know--            these hundred-thousand
-That's kind of interesting, you know,        people who have come off
-because we have eight-million members...     drugs?
-The Boston Globe said, if there's only
-fifty-thousand members, how come..
-there are (laughing) you know, how come there's so much attack on the
-Churgh of Scientology, You wouldn't care about it.  Because--
-DENNIS:  Because of the number of
-lawyers you have, not the number of members.     HEBER:  Ahhhh--
-                                                 Let's go back to--
-PRISCILLA:  And the way you spend                We're--
-your money attacking.  and the                   We're handling--
-private investigators you hire.
-HEBER:  And they're effective, and that's
-why we're still alive and standing--           DENNIS:  I have a bunch
-There are a lot of people who are making       of questions that--
-benefit, from the use of that drug
-rehabilitation technology--
-PRISCILLA:  There are forty in Oklahoma.  Forty patients.
-HEBER:  At a time.                 PRISCILLA:  That doesn't
-At a time, at a time.              add up to very many--
-And I talked to hundreds           Because the courts only
-in Spain--                         allow that many.
-And I talked to hundreds-- Yeah.
-I talked to hundreds over
-there in Spain--                   DENNIS:  In Spain?
-Yes, in Spain--                    Weren't you arrested
-                                   in Spain recently?
-HEBER: (smooth roads fair weather, what are your crimes)
-Oh, I was there two years ago, were you involved in that?
-                                   -- Anyway--
-DENNIS:  I'm asking if you         I--
-were arrested, and for what?       Well, I--
-Isn't that a question?  Can we
-get an answer to that?
-HEBER:  (blusters) Wh-hn.
-I was arrested in Spain, they
-let it go, they let me go, okay?   DENNIS:  For what?
-Whuh.  Let's just go
-back to this fact that--           PRISCILLA:  It was referred to
-Huh?                               a higher court.
-What--
-                                   JANE:  What was the charge?
-HEBER:  *Being* a Scientologist,
-was the charge, because they       DENNIS:  No, that wasn't the charge.
-didn't have a warrant-- they
-didn't have a warrant with my
-name on it.  They arrested a       PRISCILLA:   Falsification of--
-whole bunch of people--
-They arrested people for--
-being Scientologists, they said        DENNIS:  That's absurd.
-anyone who is a foreigner-- No!        This goes back to your
-*I* *was* *there* Mis-ter Er-lich,     conspiracy theory--
-I was there!  And I spoke with         Mr. Hubbard's conspiracy theory--
-these people who had come out
-of those mountains, who had been
-treated, and who had used narCONon, and come off of drugs, when all of
-the programs over there had failed. The psychiatrists were giving them
-more drugs, and they were claiming a two-to-three percent success rate,
-charging $30,000 to do it, and the people were going back onto drugs!
-*We* had a success rate -- independent study, sociologically done,
-over there, which was done by the government, 72% to 78% success rate--
-PRISCILLA:  When narCONon was studied in Michigan--
-HEBER:  No-NO!  You guys              DENNIS:  You claim whatever you
-want drugs!  You guys want drugs!     want--  That's absurd--
-You are for it!  You are trying       That's absurd--
-to destroy any drug program--
-No-no--                               JANE:  Heber, give Dennis
-Dennis, you want drugs.               a chance to respond--
-Do you want people off
-of drugs?   Do you want               DENNIS:  That's absurd,
-them off of drugs?                    that's totally absurd.
-Prozac is in there,
-IT'S A KILLER!!  It is
-a psychiatric killer drug!
-JANE:  Heber, I'm gonna have to cut
-your microphone off, if you           HEBER:  Fine--
-don't give him a chance to            He won't--
-respond!                              He won't talk about drugs.
-DENNIS:  I have a list of questions from former members, I run a group
-of former members, a sort of encounter group of former--
-JANE:  First, answer my question, what was the charge, in Spain?
-DENNIS: Ah, you know,
-I'm not even sure.               Heber (triumphantly):
- --                              You weren't even there.
-I'm not sure.
-PRISCILLA:  Falsification of records, coercion, capital flight; they
-called it a pure and simple charlatanism.
-JANE:  All right.  You have--              HEBER:  And obviously the
-I will allow you to ask *one*              judge said, "Mr.Jentzch you
-question--  Give it your best shot--       can go," because there was
-                                           no evidence, so they let it--
-PRISCILLA:  You told him your
-mother was dying, Heber, you
-made up another story.
-HEBER:   **YOU!!**
-[[ the tone of pure shock in Heber's voice, at Being Found Out,
-cannot be rendered in ASCII.  It rings, it echoes. Rage and terror.]]
-DENNIS:  Whoa, listen to this.            HEBER:  Naw.
-[[others boggle]]                         That is--
-The louder he talks, the more truth,      That is--  Hold on!
-right?
-HEBER:  You talk about my mother that way?  That tells me exactly what
-you're like!  *You* talk about my mother that way, and you say that you
-love these people?  You talk about my mother that way?  I am angry about
-that!  Because, my mother *was* dying, and my mother *is* very ill, and
-has been for some time.  You talk about that?  That's the kind of person
-you are!  I have *no* support for you, I am angry about that!  And you,
-Dennis, if you join with that, just.. That's the kind of thing you
-people support!  That is absolutely unconscionable! You talk about my
-mother that way, Priscilla?  (growling) How do you feel about people?
-JANE:  Dennis, ask your question.
-DENNIS:  Umm..(sighs)             HEBER:  No, I--
-                                  I-- I--
-JANE:  Hold on, Heber,
-let him ask his question.         HEBER:  Do you think that's okay?
-You-- Heber, you have             You're the moderator, do you think
-been dominating this conver-      that's okay?  Do you think it's okay?
-sation since you walked into      --
-this studio.  I think that        But, do you think it's okay?
-you oughtta calm down, and
-give them a chance to respond.
-HEBER:  I don't like that being said about my mother.
-*She* said that, do you think it's okay?
-JANE:  You're turning this
-into a major issue--             HEBER:  I am *furious* about that!
-I think what you do--            I am *furious* about it!
---is take the--                  You can laugh about it--
-                                 That's my mother!
-[[The others are chuckling at Heber's adroit use of Scientology, to turn
-the subject away from his arrest in Spain.  Dennis begins to explain]]
-DENNIS:  He takes control of the--      HEBER:  No.
-                                        [[ quod et demonstrandum ]]
-JANE:  I think what you do is take
-an issue and turn it into-- if it's--      HEBER:  She said that!
-something you don't want to answer,
-you will not answer, and you create
-an issue.
-DENNIS: (murmers) Exactly.  Exactly.
-HEBER:  Every American out there who thinks it's okay to say that about
-somebody's mother, fine.  Join these people, (the growling tone again) I
-don't think you do.  I don't either--
-DENNIS:  Can I ask my question?
-JANE:  Please ask your question.
-DENNIS:  This question is directed from a group of ex-scientologists,
-and it's a sincere question.  We went through hours and hours of
-confessionals, and all of our, quote, sins, are written down in folders,
-and some people have stacks of folders like ten feet tall.  We would
-like our folders *back* from these people, because they can use it
-against us.
-JANE: That's your best question? (laughing) That's your best question?
-DENNIS:  And-- when will our-- confessional folders be returned to us,
-and how?
-JANE: (swallows)  Heber.
-HEBER:  Is that in your request?  I mean,
-I don't know what he's talking about.
-(louder)                                   DENNIS: No, he doesn't know
-No, I tell you what we'll do--             what he's talking about--
-no, tell you what we do, Dennis--          "Send in my request."
-No-no.  Send in your request--             Oh, thank you--
-You come with us, and we will shred
-them in front of you.
-                                           JANE:  That's a pretty good
-DENNIS: (chuckles) Okay--                  answer, hey--
-(crosstalk) [[they all seem to agree, to a point]]
-HEBER: No-no, wait a minute, that's his *best question*.  And you think
-we-- you know, that's bad?  We'll shred your folders in front of you.
-DENNIS:  That's a-- that's a concern, of ex-members.
-JANE:  What's in your folder?
-DENNIS:  My *confessionals*--
-PRISCILLA:  Everything th-- Every thought--
-JANE:  Every thought, every action?
-DENNIS:  See--they-- Exactly.  Everything that I've ever confessed, uh,
-in Scientology.  Uh, fifteen years of confessionals.  And, the ex-
-members have requested, for years and years, that their PC folders be -
-they're called PC folders - be returned to them, and, uh, they have not
-been able to get this done.
-HEBER:  You know, those folders have been shredded in the past, I mean,
-of course, what it means is, you know for all time and eternity, you're
-not in Scientology, and, that's fine, that's your choice--
-DENNIS: That's fine with me.  That is definitely fine with me.
-HEBER:  But anyway, I think that, you know--
-DENNIS:  that's a concern of a lot of people, that's why I ask it as,
-quote, my best question.  But I have plenty of other questions.
-JANE: Okay, let's-- let's go to a telephone call, Dan has a question,
-from Sherman Oaks, Dan, you're on KFI.
-CALLER:  Yeah, I have a friend, who, uh, his wife has been going through
-Scientology, she's from a foreign country, she's been in this country
-about two years, and you see a dramatic change in her, that I think is
-not for the better, suddenly she starts talking about all the courses
-she wants to take, and how that's the only thing she wants money for,
-she's starting to work another job, to get the extra money for this,
-anyone who says anything critical about Scientology, be it Time
-magazine, the L.A. Times, those are liars, et cetera, will not brook any
-sort of, you know, *inquisitive* criticism, and -- it's amazing
-to see this change, this is a very sweet, nice person.
-JANE: Okay--
-CALLER:  Priscilla, Dennis, you guys are doing a great job--
-Nail this guy!
-DENNIS:  Well,
-I have an answer--                 HEBER:  Is she nas-- Is she
-I have an answer                   nasty to you?
-for that--  I have                 Is she being
-an answer to that--                bad to you? -- Ahem.
-Scientology--
-Scientology systematically destroys a person's ability
-to question or think critically about things.  Ah, the
-reason that is, is that you have to suspend your criticism,
-and go through the processes of Scientology, to see that
-they work, in other words, that's actually part of what
-you have to do: you have to suspend
-your criticism in order to go through
-the auditing, or the training
-that they give you--                   HEBER:  Well, I believ--
-It's all-- it's all,                   --
-it all induces a mild state of         --
-hypnosis, which, over years--          Ahhm, uh huh..
-which over years, can add up
-to a walking, you know, a walking hypnosis.
-JANE:  Heber, what's happening?  Why is
-she disassociating from her family and friends?
-HEBER: Well eh- uh, are you still on the line, caller?
-JANE: Yeah, caller's still there.
-HEBER:  Are you still there?
-CALLER:  Yeah, I'm still here.
-HEBER:  So, are you saying that she's being uh, very vicious to you, and
-attacking you, and so forth? is she some--
-CALLER:  If you raise the issue of something being wrong in Scientology,
-I asked her about the Time Magazine article, immediately, it was,
-'Do you believe everything that Time prints?'
-I said, well, gee, I've read stuff in--          HEBER:  Nah, I-- I--
-the L.A. Times about--  'Do you believe          --
-everything that is printed in the L.A Times?'    -- No, I don't!
-Any criticism--                                  No, I don't believe
-                                                 everything in Time
-DENNIS: No, but that's the line,                 magazine eith--
-that's the line that they're fed--               --
-                                                 --
-CALLER:  ..you sit there and change these        Hold on--
-things around, you use these little debate
-techniques and get totally off the subject--
-You know--                                       DENNIS: Exactly.
-HEBER:  I'll go right to the subject of Time magazine!  Let's go to th--
-CALLER:  ...talk about your mother,
-in a reasonable fashion--                 HEBER: A "reasonable fashion?"
-about a story you used to get out of      --
-a another country, for a charge in--      -- Naw, I-- I was--
-And then you blow a fuse                  -- My mother was--
-on this program!                          -- Huh, yeah, I blew a fuse
---                                        because I don't like people
---                                        talking about my mother that
---                                        way--
---
-I'd like to come after you even harder,
-and *make* you blow a fuse, tonight!
-Because, I'll bet, if you suffered any   HEBER: Well, I tell you what--
-sort of "radiation sickness," I'll bet   -- (bristling)
-you have documentation--                 You bet your life I do!
---  (crosstalk)
--- you are a liar and cheat, and a con-man!  I'll get off the line, and
-listen to his tirade afterwards.
-(Dennis laughs)
-HEBER:  Huh, I don't think that deserves a response, because I'd talk to
-somebody who's intelligent.  Ah, I, uh I think that it's very clear that
-there is a concern about the fact, in that Time magazine article, that
-we are exposing drugs, and we are exposing the fact that, these kinds of
-drugs like this killer-drug Prozac
-is taking peoples lives,
-and there's somebody who's             [[(Priscilla sighs heavily]]
-concerned about it, you know --
-I dunno, why there is so much concern, but I tell you what, I'm
-supported by a lot of media, and I saw Dan Rather hit it real hard, a
-week ago, and, I've seen it on, uh Donohugh, I've seen it on ah, a
-number of national TV shows, exposing this killer-drug, it's taking
-people's lives.  We are--
-DENNIS: --Your program was in the Wall Street Journal,
-exactly what your agenda is, with regard to drug companies--
-HEBER:  And, you know what happened?         PRISCILLA: Scientology is
-You know what happened?                      orchestrating a campaign
-You bet your life.  We are showing it.       against--
-And you know what happened?  They lost
-one billion one hundred million dollars in about two weeks, after they
-put that article on the Wall Street Journal, and you know why?  Because
-people knew it was phoney, they knew it was destructive, No one's going
-to take a drug. And that, that company, Eli Lilly, was producing Oraflex
-before that.  The Food and Drug Administration took it off, because it
-was killing people.  Well, they're puttin' out another one that's
-killing people, and, I'll tell you what, Dennis, we're gonna continue to
-go after it, 'cuz we don't believe that that kind of drug should be on
-the market, and, that it causes people to commit violence.  We're going
-to continue; yes, your hand's raised, okay?  I'm out.
-JANE: (had been trying to call for a break) Y-- yes, this is KFI 640,
-we will continue our conversation about Scientology, after this break,
-on KFI.
-[[file kfi9.rm]]
-JANE:  This is KFI AM 640, Jane Norris with you until midnight tonight,
-we have a conversation going about Scientology, and I want to try and
-get some of your telephone calls on the air.  We will continue our
-conversation after eleven o'clock tonight, your responses to the
-conversation that we've had about Scientology.  I want to get your
-telephone calls on the air, I know we haven't had much of an opportunity
-to do that, but please hang in there with me, and we will get you on the
-line.  Alaina is calling from Sylmar, Alaina, you're on KFI.
-CALLER:  Hello.  I am twelve years old, and I'm calling on my own bill,
-and, I am a Scientologist, and I want to say how good it is, and how
-much it has helped our family and my parents.
-JANE: Ah, how long have you been a member, Alaina?
-CALLER:  All my life.
-JANE:  Mmm-hmm, were your parents Scientologists, and then you were
-born, and.. they indoctrinated you or you became involved, also?
-CALLER:  Yes, they've been involved for over fifteen years.
-JANE:  And, do your parents live with the Church too?
-CALLER: Ah, yes.
-JANE:  Mn-kay. So, you live and are a member of the Church, and you
-do every-day activities -- how are your playmates, what do -- do you
-play with other Scientology kids, or do you get to play with other
-people too?
-Caller.  I don't mind any other other religion,
-we are not prejudiced of any religion--
-JANE: No, I'm asking you, do you stay inside the Church, pretty much,
-or do you get to go to school with other kids, how does it work?
-CALLER:  I get to go to school with whoever I want and I can be with
-whoever I want.
-JANE: Where do you go to school?
-CALLER:  Well, currently I am home-schooling.  My school that I will be
-going to, and, that I have previously been to, is both Scientology
-schools.
-JANE:  Okay, so you've really never been in public school.
-CALLER:  Oh.. I have not been a Publi-- in a public school, but I have
-been.. in private schools; they are not Scientology schools.
-JANE:  Mm-hm, you sound very intelligent, you're obviously not lacking
-for education.  Is this a common practice, Heber, do kids that're born
-into Scientology, do they pretty much stay exclusive to the group, or--
-Do they--
-HEBER: Naw, naw, there's..(chuckles) with all the membership we have
-internationally, people go to regular schools, ahm, and there are the
-schools that, ah, which use Study Technology, which is very effective.
-Mr Hubbard has developed an incredible technology for study, and there
-are a number of schools springing up all over the world, which are using
-those technologies, ah, in fact 2.5 million native Africans have
-studied, and use Study Technology in
-South Africa, so ahm, this is
-something, and, by the way,
-he sounds very -- uh,  she?                 JANE:  She.  Alaina.
-Oh, sorry--                                 --
-Alaina sounds very intelligent--            She is, she does.
-And, she's twelve years old, and her        --
-parents are Scientologists, and I think     --
-she has a right to her religion.            JANE:  I agree.
-I think she has a right to live it, and
-to uh, heh, to do as she wishes.  Huhn.
-Home-schooling is by the way not just a
-concept with Scientologist, I want you to
-know that there are a lot of Christian groups
-that have home-schooling, and, uhh, they're
-very effective, by the way, I've seen studies
-on it, Christian schools, where their IQs are higher,
-where their morals are much higher, and there's much, much less drugs
-on their campuses, or are --in their homes obviously, and their lives
-are drug-free, I think it's a great idea.
-JANE:  You have a comment?
-DENNIS:  Yes I do, uhm, I have four daughters, and they were all
-raised in Scientology, and their education was atrocious, based on
-Scientology.  Uh, their contacts with the outside world, were minimal.
-And, when they finally did make contact with the outside world, they
-had about two or three years of catch-up to do.  That's all of them.
-HEBER:  Well, makes you a poor father, my daughter's doing great,
-and my kid is doing great-great, my daughter is five years old she
-reads, uh, way ahead of her time, and my boy is six, and he's reading
-way ahead of his time, and I jus-- because I spent the time with them,
-and used the technology that L. Ron Hubbard has, of study, with them,
-and I tell you what: There's nothing wrong with helping people learning
-how to study, 'specially when you've got such a high illiteracy rate in
-this country, and have an extremely high drop-out rate in this school
-system, in this country -- (contempuously) people who can't even read a
-menu, people who can't even read a bus card.
-PRISCILLA:  The big secret
-of the Study Tech is
-looking up words.              HEBER: (lugubrious) Well good!  Good!
---
---                                   JANE:  What does that mean--
-Looking up words in the              --Looking up--
-dictionary. I dare say               Oh, I see. Well, that's--
-we all think  that's a fairly
-good technique, but there's
-nothing secret or magical
-about it.
-DENNIS:  Hubbard certainly
-didn't invent it. Heh, heh...     HEBER: Well, there's--
-JANE:  Well, if he can get
-kids to read, I gotta applaud
-that, because -- they don't!     DENNIS:  In any case, in any case--
-HEBER: The schools are failing in that respect, and Mr. Hubbard has
-helped an awful lot of many-- uh, people do that, and we're continuing
-to do it, we're very successful at it.
-JANE: Let's take another call.
-(the next caller, Roxanne, has hung up, so...)
---
-Let's go... to John who's calling from San Diego;
-John, you're on KFI.
-CALLER: Hi.
-HEBER: Hi, John.
-CALLER: I have one question, one question only, and I'd like a straight
-answer to it...
-HEBER: (Jumping in at the head of the line, bracing) Okay...
-CALLER:  ...I would like someone to describe the process of exorcism,
-uh, Dennis really never finished.
-DENNIS:  Yeah, I would *like* to talk about that--
-HEBER:  (Barging in) Well, you can pick it up in Dianetics, Modern
-Science of Mental Health..[[Dennis sighs heavily]]..and what it does is
-deal with the mental image pictures that a person has and it can deal
-with a person's past going back into his past life.
-DENNIS:  (Cutting back in) It's got nothing to do with that.
-                                      HEBER:  Well, it *does* have
-                                      everything to do with it and you
- DENNIS:  It doesn't have            *know* that.  Dianetics Modern
- anything to do with that.           --
-                                     Science
- DENNIS:  [to the caller]            of Mental Health --
- Do you want an answer or            --
- do you want to hear what            Dianetics, Dianetics --
- the propaganda front is?            --
-                                     Dianetics Modern Science of
- CALLER: I would like an             Mental Health has an answer
- answer from Dennis.                 to that --
-                                     --
- DENNIS:  Okay, well I'll            and Dennis knows that Dianetics
- give you one.                       has the answer to it.
- DENNIS:  He's blocking.  He's blocking!
- HEBER:  I am not blocking that! [to caller] You know, you're sitting
-                                             here, John....
- CALLER: Could I have my
- answer please?
- DENNIS:  I would like to
- answer, but he won't stop --     JANE:  Well, this is the second
-                                  time it's come up, and [exasperated]
- HEBER: [sardonically] Suure --   neither time have we gotten an answer!
- Yaknow --  Look --
- I'm not here to discuss--        CALLER:  I heard the other answer,
- I am not here to                 I'd like to hear Dennis'.
- discuss the religion of
- Scientology --                   DENNIS:  I'd love to answer but Heber
-                                  won't stop talking.
- HEBER:  [insistently]            That's the thing,
- Dennis, Dennis . . .             you won't stop to let me --
- DENNIS:  This is the technique that he drills before he comes on an
- interview like this so he won't have to answer a question.
- HEBER:  [Very loudly] Oh!  Give me a break, Dennis!  Come on!  You know
-better than that! [You were in for] fifteen years --
- JANE:  Why won't you let him answer the caller?
- CALLER:  Could I have Dennis' answer please?  Dennis' answer?
- HEBER:  *I said* that Dianetics Modern Science of Mental Health has an
-answer to it.
- JANE:  Now there are three of us asking -- let him answer -- All right.
-[Heber's mike is cut]
-JANE: Okay.  There ya go.
-HEBER:  All right, cut me off, all right --
-JANE:  Well?  You won't stop!
-DENNIS: Okay, now I can answer? (chuckling) That's great.  That's great,
-thank you very much.  The exorcism process Hubbard describes -- that...
-the individual has ended up, over the process of millions and millions
-of years, plagued by thousands and thousands of entities -- besides
-himself -- that are occupying his body.  These entities speak to him and
-give him messages which are his...reactive mind, they call it.  [[Heber
-bursts in]]
- HEBER: Well, she cut off my microph--  [[Evidently, Priscilla Coates
- Hey!  Get your hands offa me!          attempts to restrain Heber, who
- You get your hands offa me!            grows instantly furious.
- You keep your hands offa me!           Others are chortling at
-                                        the spectacle.]]
- JANE: Let it go, Priscilla, we don't
- want to start a fight!
- HEBER: I'm not gonna start a fight,          [Priscilla says, "Is this
- but if she puts her hands on-- I don't       any way to treat a lady?"]
- care if you are -- you call yourself
- a lady, you know -- you better *watch it*,    DENNIS: Look at this
- Priscilla! [palpable menace]  Wouldn't        technique....
- be the first time!  No, I mean my
- microphone's cut off, I'll just --          PRISCILLA: Why don't we
-                                             describe what's happening.
- HEBER: ("reporting") My microphone
-has been cut off, and I'm standing
-here next to Dennis talking...
-DENNIS:  This is the kind of       HEBER: Well... because I don't
-thing that really --               feel my microphone should be cut off!
-CALLER: It seems pretty clear that he doesn't want you to answer.
-DENNIS: No, he definitely
-doesn't want me to answer...           HEBER:  "I tell you what...
-This is a serious thing to him,        You people... you people have...
-that I'm talking about exorcism,       I think that, you know...
-but that's what Scientology is         about your --
-actually about... that's exactly       [resumes shouting]
-what Scientology is about --           Because you love drugs don't you!
-the.. exorcism process is..            You think drugs is a wonderful
-The exor--                             thing, don't you!
-(giggles) Listen to this...            You love drugs, don't you Dennis!
-                                       Dennis, you love drugs, don't
-                                       you, huh?  You love drugs.  And
-                                       you hate us because we take
-                                       people off of drugs.
-                                       [querulously] Are you on drugs
-CALLER: This is pretty cool, though.   right now Dennis?  Dennis.
-                                       (demanding) What are you on?
-                                       What are you on, Dennis?
-[Dennis' microphone cut off by host]
-JANE: All right, we're gonna take a break -- here on KFI.
-[[Heber can be heard continuing to argue, in the background]]:
-HEBER: [All I can do is] stand over here and talk, you know?  That's all
-I can do!  You know?
- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
-(end of recording)
-In article <aackqi02muo@drn.newsguy.com>, Reposter@Reposter.Org says...
-Reposted:
-From: inform@Primenet.Com (the inFormer)
-Newsgroups:
-alt.religion.scientology
-Subject: Body Rasins
-Date: 30 Sep 1995 16:09:40 GMT
-Organization: Primenet
-Lines: 182
-NNTP-Posting-Host: usr2.primenet.com
-NNTP-Posting-User: inform
-                          OCCULT MOUTH
-(SPEAKING IN FOOT)
-                           GLENDOWER:
-            I can call spirits
-from the vasty deep.
-                            HOTSPUR:
-               Why, so can I,
-or so can any man;
-         But will they come when you do call for them?
-    (Shakespeare, King Henry IV)
-     Heber Jentzsch looked worried.  Worse yet, he seemed "off
-his feed."  He was confronting a pair of semi-informed news
-anchors from a
-local TV station the evening before the explosive
-Time Magazine article hit the
-newsstands.  The newsreaders were
-citing the charges made in the Time magazine article.
-Joining
-the broadcast by telephone from Cape Cod, Massachusetts was Earl
-Cooley, the
-acerbic, venomous legal mouthpiece of Scientology.
-     Uncharacteristically, Jentsch
-seemed to fumble his usually
-oily-smooth responses.  Cooley jumped in hotly (joke)
-several
-times before Jentsch could flub a respose.  In a rapid-fire,
-Walter
-Winchell-like cadence, Cooley alternately hurled
-accusations and threats against Time
-Magazine and the reporter
-who wrote the article.  This was vintage Cooley.  An expert
-using
-the drills that the Guardian's office used to teach its Public
-Relations people.
-Attack, Attack, Attack!  "The bank follows the
-line of attack", Hubbard used to say.
-    While it was vintage Cooley, it certainly was not vintage
-Jentsch.  His usual
-arrogant, smugness and "I am in charge here"
-smile were missing.  He looked grim.  Maybe
-he could not see the
-newsreaders directly, being forced to look only into a camera,
-maybe the makeup people goofed and gave him that greyish pallor,
-maybe he was tired from
-lack of sleep, or maybe he was just tired
-of dissembling (look it up) to the press after
-all these years.
-     In reviewing the tape of the news broadcast it was difficult
-at
-first to spot the cause of Heber's distress.  Finally things
-seemed to come into focus.
-Heber was covered from head to foot
-with almost invisible, little spirit-like things!
-Each one was
-about the size of a raisin.  These little shriveled-up entities
-must be the
-famous OT III "Body Raisins" Hubbard claimed
-possessed all of us.  There they were on
-Heber, visible to the
-entire TV audience, seeming to have a sentience all their own!
-(certainly Heber didn't)  Worse for Heber: they were influencing
-his mind and behavior,
-and he didn't even know they were
-there...swarming over every nook and cranny of his
-body.  This
-startling discovery also explains Heber's bizarre behavior the
-following
-week.
-     There seems to be no other explanation for Heber's parading
-a complete set
-of ridiculous allegations, downright lies,
-attempted intimidation in the week that
-followed than to say that
-he was under the influence of his BRs gone amuck.  He kept
-saying
-that Scientology had 8 million members, that 100,000 people had
-been freed from
-drugs and even that the author of the Time
-magazine article was a stalking horse for the
-IRS.  When asked a
-direct question about Scientology, Heber would launch off into a
-different topic.
-     That Sunday night, almost a week after that issue of Time
-hit the
-newsstands, Heber appeared on a radio talk show on KFI in
-Los Angeles.  The worst thing
-possible happened:  Heber was
-completely overcome by his abundant complement of Body
-Raisins.
-Some say Heber was also suffering from another manifestation of
-Body Raisins -
-clumping - wherein they glom onto each other in a
-big, sticky, ugly mass of evil
-influence and force a person into
-completely wacko behavior.  The host of the talk show
-even had to
-shut down Heber's microphone.  The BRs must have been keeping his
-jaw moving
-as Heber vented his wrath in a loud, wild, wailing
-"scream-of-unconciousness".
-     One
-of the guests on the show, Dennis Erlich, started to
-give an explanation of an aspect of
-Scientology's occult
-"theology" concerning exorcism.
-     Heber, unasked, started
-screaming in a most ungracious
-manner.  BR possession had taken over.  The show's host
-promptly
-cut off his microphone.  Not to be thwarted from blocking the
-revelation of his
-cult's most guarded (and expensive) secrets,
-Heber rose out of his chair, went around
-the table to where the
-other guests were seated and from his mouth came the strangest
-manner of emanations (perhaps he was even "speaking in foot?").
-     Here's a sample of
-the dialogue from KFI's show (Hosted by
-Jane North):
-Caller:  I would like someone to
-describe the process of exorcism
-. . . Dennis never really explained it.
-Dennis:  Yes,
-I would like to talk about that . . .
-Heber:  (Interrupting) Well, you can pick it up
-in Dianetics
-Modern Science of Mental Health . . . What it does is deal with
-mental
-image pictures a person has and it can deal with a
-person's past going back into his
-past lives . . .
-Dennis:  (Cutting back in) It has nothing to do with that . .
-Heber:
- Well, it has everything to do with that and you [Dennis]
-know that.  Dianetics Modern
-Science of Mental Health . . .
-Dennis:  [to the caller] Do you want an answer or do you
-want to
-know what the propaganda front is?
-Heber:  [at the same time as Dennis]
-Dianetics, Dianetics,
-Dianetics Modern Science of Mental Health has an answer for you
-and Dennis KNOWS that.  Dianetics has the answer to . . .
-Dennis:  He's blocking.  He's
-blocking!
-Heber:  I am not blocking!
-Dennis:  I would like to answer . . .
-Caller:  I
-still haven't had an answer.
-Heber:  I am not hear to discuss the religion of
-Scientology . .
-Dennis:  I'd love to answer but Heber won't stop talking.  That's
-the
-thing, you [Heber] won't stop to let me . . .
-Heber:  [Sarcastically] Dennis, Dennis .
-. .
-Dennis:  This is the technique he drills before he comes on an
-interview like this
-so he won't have to answer a question.
-Heber:  [Very loudly] Give me a break!  You know
-better than that
-. . .
-Jane:  Why won't you let him answer the caller?
-Caller:  Could
-I have my answer please?
-Heber:  I said that Dianetics . . .
-Jane:  Now there are
-three of us asking so let him. . .
-     At this point, Heber's microphone cut off by
-the host.  He
-could be heard in the background trying to yell over Dennis' mic
-as Dennis
-attempted to answer the caller.  Then, just a few
-seconds later, he could be heard
-screaming "Get your hands off of
-me!  You get your hands off me!  I don't care if you
-are a . . .
-she calls herself a lady!".
-     Witnesses are sure this outburst was
-caused by Heber finally
-discovering his possession by the dreaded Body Raisins.
-Heber made his way around the table to Dennis' microphone
-where Dennis was giving the
-caller an explanation of Hubbard's
-theories of possession and techniques of exorcism.
-With bad
-breath and booming voice, he began screaming into the microphone,
-and Dennis's
-ear, the following:
-Heber:  "You love drugs don't you, Dennis?.  That's right isn't
-it
-Dennis.  You love drugs! . . . Are you on drugs now Dennis?
-Tell us are you on drugs?"
-</pre>
-</noinclude>

Difference between revisions of "1995-09-30 Heber on KFI"

Revision as of 19:47, 29 June 2009

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