1995-09-30 Heber on KFI/text

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The transcript was copied-and-pasted from an email (which stated that it was released into the public domain); formatting is needed.


  • [[Editorial comments]]
  • [Inferred words]
  • (Characterizations, nuances of speech)
  • *simple emphasis*
  • Ellipses "..." are omissions, "ums" and "ers," pauses, etc.
  • Repeated phrases may either be rendered or replaced with "..."
  • "--" may variously represent interruption points, or occasionally hold a place in a column... Oh, figure it out for yourself, and don't expect perfect consistency.


(about 0:25 of pleasant fusion-jazz riff.  nice)

Jane Norris, host:  This is KFI 640, more stimulating talk-radio, at 
10:05 in the evening, we continue our conversation about Scientology; we 
have with us in the studio, President of the Church of Scientology 
International, Heber Jentzsch; also with us is Priscilla Coates of the 
Cult Awareness Network; and joining us now, on the air, is-- Dennis... 
(struggles with name, he helps) Erlich.  And, Dennis, you were once a 
member of Scientology.

Dennis Erlich:  Yes, I was.  For fifteen years.

JANE:  Okay, and tell me about your experiences in the Church.

DENNIS:  (begins slowly, seems self-concious) Well, when I (sighs) first 
contacted Scientology, it was 1968.  And, I was 19 years old.  Uhhm, I 
walked in, and they took me on a tour, much like the tour that you took 

JANE:  Saturday.

DENNIS: Er, Saturday.

HEBER:  That didn't even exist, then.

[[(the moment is weighed.  "Saturday didn't exist in 1968," or, "No one 
could get a tour back then."  Go figure]]

JANE:  Well.     Go ahead.

DENNIS:  Uhmn, am I going to be interrupted while I tell my story?

JANE:  No.  I hope not.

DENNIS:  Uhuh, I appreciate it--      

JANE: (to Heber) Give him an opportunity.

HEBER:  Okay.

DENNIS:  We've heard *plenty* from Heber, and he'll have--

JANE:  And, he'll have, believe me, he'll have an opportunity to respond 
to what you say.

HEBER:  You'll hear some more! (laughs) That's the way it works, Dennis. 
(laughs heartily)

DENNIS:  Quite honestly, my stomach is churning, from the fact that.. 
(pause)  This is a line..  His lines have been pumped into people's 
heads, without any rebuttal for long enough.  Ah, Scientology is a 
series of facades, and he is the outermost of those facades.

JANE:  (impatiently, cattleprod) Explain what you mean.

DENNIS:  Well, erhm, when I came into Scientology, I was toured around, 
and I was told..  Lots of claims were made for Scientology, that it was 
the road to total freedom, that it would do all of these things, that it 
would basically turn one into God, or, a god.

JANE:  And you obviously felt that that was an acceptable thing for you, 
for a time.

DENNIS:  Well, you have to remember that I was 19 years old, I was 
naive, and at the time, like most people who become.. infatuated with 
this type of cult, I was undergoing some personal difficulties for which 
I was seeking solutions.  And so, the claim of these ultimate 
solutions.. uh, it was like.. having found.. water in a desert.

JANE:  So, you found some form of.. some saving grace.. you felt that 
Scientology was the answer, for a time.

DENNIS:  I felt that any group that would make such claims, would have 
to be incredibly good, or incredibly evil.  And, after having the tour, 
and.. having this all explained to me, I made the statement that, if 
Scientology is what it claims to be, then I should do everything I could 
possibly do to help it.  But if it isn't, then I should do everything I 
could possibly do to destroy it.

JANE:  How long were you involved?

DENNIS:  Fifteen years.

JANE:  What made you stop?

DENNIS:  Well, I found out that, really, it was just a criminal 

JANE:  (impatiently focused) Explain what you mean.

DENNIS: (uncomfortable) Well--(sighs)  Lots of the activities of 
Scientology, deal in deception of either individuals or governments, so, 
in that sense, it is a conspiracy.

JANE:  How were you deceived?

DENNIS:  I myself was deceived on the basis that this was a system of 
answers, rather than a system of belief.  Um, Scientology claims that 
you don't have to believe anything, and yet, you have to suspend your 
disbelief, otherwise you are being critical.

JANE:  What was so hard for you to believe?

DENNIS:  (picking up pace) Well, there wasn't anything 
that was really 'hard for me to believe,' 
because it's presented on a gradient.         JANE: In other words--
--A little at a time.                         ...Okay.
Umm, ultimately, after fifteen years 
of... what I would say is very 
dedicated service, to Scientology -- working, 
9 in the morning til 10:30-midnight, at night 
seven days a week, for $17.50 an hour.. 
I mean, $17.50 a *week*, excuse me--         JANE: 17 dollars
--50 cents a week, that's,                   and 50 cents?
when we got paid at all. That's 
standard pay, in the sea org.

JANE:  But, you were taken 
care of, as a member?                DENNIS:  Uhh.. Taken care of,
Your housing, and your food--        in terms of housed--  Yeah.

HEBER: (pointedly) And your medical, and your clothes and so forth.

JANE:  Did you--  How much did you donate to the CoS?

DENNIS:  Fifteen of my years.  And, in terms of money?  Probably 
$1,700.00-- maybe 3,000 at most.  But, I was on staff.  So, as far as 
the.. As far as how I was deceived; Scientology claims to be a system 
which-- by which, you can achieve certain things.  And those things are 
only achieved in one's own mind.  Those things.. are only a result of 
one's own belief system.  

JANE:  So your success in life is gauged by how much you know, about 
Scientology, and how far you have come along the path?

DENNIS:  Exactly. Exactly.                    

JANE:  Okay.       
DENNIS: And, within that framework, you can achieve status, but within 
society as a whole, you're segregated, from society, by the belief 
system itself.

JANE:  So, you really don't get to inter..  When you're involved in the 
Church of Scientology, employed by..  How much interaction do you get 
with the rest of the planet?

DENNIS:  Well, really, what it amounts to is the average staff member 
only does Scientology, and has a short time off.  The deceptive part of 
it is that Scientology really deals with exorcism, and that is what the 
basis of it is, Hubbard talked about that, in the most advanced tapes, 
that he gave on L-12, that exorcism *is* what you're dealing with--

HEBER: (softly but quite urgently)
Erm, he's had 
about seven minutes, can I talk        JANE:  Absolutely.  Give him 
some time here?                        another minute here, until we 
He's had about seven                   get through through this exorcism
minutes, you know..                    thing.  (to Dennis,) Exorcism?

[[Timeline: Dennis has had about five-and-a-half minutes to talk, 
but, interestingly, Heber's interjection occurs almost precisely at the 
7-minute mark of the clip, which begins with 5 seconds of dead air, and 
about 20 seconds of nice fusion rock/jazz riff, the host's intro, etc, 
and with neither interruptions by Heber nor the recovery from them 
charged against Dennis' time.  Further notations are made in this 
format, "5:30/7:00"]]

DENNIS:  Exorcism, that's the basis of Scientology, and, a person 
doesn't find that out until he's spent tens of thousands of dollars.  
That that's what he's being prepared for.

JANE: What are we 
exorcising?                 HEBER:  Well, he's--  
DENNIS:  You're exor-       (begins chuckling forcefully)
cising ss--  You're             
exorcising-- entities--     Heh, yeh-- Eh, lemme, 
who are--  supposedly       lemme-- Well, you know,
giving you--                Hold on a second--
                            He knew he wanted-- 
JANE: (sarcastically)       No-no-- (sternly)
"Hold on" for Heber--       He's had 
(Abruptly shouts)           eight minutes--
LET HIM FINISH here!        [[5:50/7:30]]                DENNIS:  He's 
--                          --                           just going-- 
--                          He's had eight               to interrupt--
(pleading)                  minutes, he's                --
Well, we're just            just sitting                  --
getting to the              there going--                 (chuckling)
good part here,             Naww, I'm-- naw, he--         Now, really--
hold on!  Heber,            He's-- He's talked--          This is--
please! Please,             You've had eight minutes,     This is what
let him finish!             Dennis.  Dennis.  Dennis--    needs to be
--                          You know, wh----              said. This is
--                                                        exactly what    
Now, wait a second.                                       needs to be 

[[Jane is significantly peeved with Heber's behavior, unbecoming
of a guest.  She plonks him.  Dennis is telling Priscilla about 
Heber's tactics of breaking in. Heber's mike is momentarily muted, 
but he can be heard faintly]] 

                                   What he wants to do--
                                   [[mic opens]] Okay, you're 
JANE:  I'm gonna *ask* you        gonna cut it off, well you--
to cooperate with me and          [[mic cut again, he frets on 
let him *finish*!                 about "looking at the clock,"
                                  and how "it's been ten minutes,"


DENNIS: And please let me finish       
what I'm saying!  This is what is      
deceptive about this cult, ahem:       
The fact of the matter is that it       HEBER:  Naw, I-- You know--
deals with exorcism.  The cult,         Look--  you are talk--"Cult--"
from beginning to end, deals with       It's not a cult, you know it's
exorcism-- It certainly *is* a cult,    not a cult--
and I've been inside that cult,         --
and I know, that it is a cult.          No.  You know what it is, and
There's mind control that goes on,      it's not a cult.
because the-- (chuckles) I was in       --
charge, of quality control, at their    --
Florida Land Base.  And I *know*.       HEBER: Well, that's not my 
--                                      position, and you know that 
--                                      every church in the world has 
I was posted by Hubbard himself.        a quality controlll...

[[Heber tends to orchestrate his speech, sonorously and stacatto-like, 
by turns, when he is talking over someone.  It's almost like a dance]]

JANE:  Hold on a moment.       HEBER: No!  Wait a minute!  Let's--
Now, deal--                    He's had thirteen minutes [[6:01/8:26]]
Oh!? *NO*!                     here and I just wish--
thirteen minutes!?  No!        Well, I'm looking at the clock up here--

[[No, indeed.  Since Heber's "8 minutes" time-check, Dennis has had 
just a further *eleven seconds* free to pursue his point; the 
remainder, not 5 minutes, but fourty-three seconds, was consumed 
by Heber's badgering over the single hot-button word, "CULT," and 
his fulminating disagreement over what time it was.  
Just so you notice too.]]

DENNIS: Listen, I've heard--         JANE:  Let's just ask-- Hold on.
*his* line--for years.               Both of you, hold on!

HEBER:  Wait a minute, fifteen ye-I've been in Scientology twenty-four 
years.  And that's a lot longer than he is.  [[Let the record show that 
Dennis is snickering]]  Now he indicates that he was in for 15 years, 
obviously he chose to leave.  And, Mister Erlich, I think you realize 
that, when you were in Scientology, that we were opposed to a number of 
things.  We were also opposed to psychiatry, I don't believe 
you support it, ah, I don't believe that you as an individual, uh, can 
rea--  Look, here's the point: we can put all kinds of people on here--

DENNIS: (demands) Well, 
Let's talk about exorcism!
                                            HEBER: Let's talk about--
PRISCILLA:  The point is that BTs--         Let's talk about *you*, 
                                            Let's talk about *you*,
DENNIS:  Let's talk about the deception.    Let's talk about *him*,
                                            Let's talk--
JANE: (brightly)  I'd like to               I-- Once-- 
talk about the exorcism.                    If--
DENNIS:  Yes, let's please discuss          If we discuss,  If we 
that.  Let's discuss these beliefs          discuss--  Let's--
that are not-- that you have to             Hold on!
pay thousands and thousands of              --
dollars to find out about.                  No!  This is absolutely,
--                                          you know, his fabrication
--                                          of what Scientology is!
That is what it is!  
And you can't deny it!

HEBER: (giddily) Well, listen, you know,
*I* watched a show the other night, 
with Father Lavarre[[?]], On ABC TV,    DENNIS:  Oh! Now we're gonna--
you know-- and if you                   --hear some other--
want to talk about--                    --garbage. 
Hold--                                  Let's talk about the exorcism!
Hold on!  Let's talk about *you*,       --
as an individual, and,                  --
the destructiveness that you have       --
aimed at a religion because you're      --
no longer a part of it!                 It has nothing to do with that!
It's easy to find--                     Has nothing to do with that
You know--                              at all!
It has everything                       No, it doesn't.  It has to do 
to do with that--                       with the deception
                                        that goes on!  It has to do
                                        with the facades *you* put up! 
JANE:  All right, *nobody*
is getting their *point*       HEBER:  He's just gonna
across-- --by yell--           override me--  Override--
DENNIS:  I have a *right*            --
to talk, because I spent                --  
fifteen years of my life,                 --
the best years of my life!                HEBER:  I spent 24 years--
Deceiving-- deceiving people              --
on behalf of you and your organization!   --
HEBER:  Naw, I think it was very clear, 
in his early statement, he said, 
he thought it was, you know, 
he either joined it because 
it was the greatest, uh, good, 
or, he thought it was the greatest 
evil, and he would attack it--        DENNIS: --And it is the greatest 
And you spent 15 years--              evil.  It's like the NAZI Party 
(stunned) Now *THAT!*                 in America!  
JANE:  All right!                     That's gonna cost me?
Gentlemen,  I've gotta--              Go ahead!  Do something!  That's
I've gotta st--                       my opinion and I have a right
--                                    to it!
I've gotta stop you here,             
we're gonna take a break!
On KFI, AM 640... more stimulating talk radio?

[[file kfi7.rm]]

JANE:  ...our conversation about Scientology continues, Heber Jentzsch, 
President of the Church of Scientology, along with Dennis Erlich, former 
Scientologist -- We got into a pretty good argument about exorcism --

HEBER: (horns in) And about NAZIS, and he's talkin' about NAZIS, and I 
wanna handle that because that particular allegation-- he knows very 
well-- [Dennis snickers]  --Yeh-okay-- he knows *very well* that the 
[CoS] has dealt very strongly with this issue, and he also knows that--

DENNIS:  I also know that it's a 
fascist organization.  Period.               HEBER: Okay--
And I know that I have a right               Let's just deal with that--  
to that opinion, because I know              --
the fascist nature of it.  I                 --
know that people on the outside              --
like Travolta *don't* know what's            --
going on inside of it, like                  --
Kirstie Ally-- they live in the--            They're personal friends 
they're waltzed around the outside           of mine-- 
by people like you who show them a           Personal friends of mine--  
front-- they don't know about what           Personal friends of mine--  
goes on on the inside, they don't            --
know about these                             They're--  
RPFers who are locked up, they               Let's just talk
don't know about a *lot* of things           about--  
that go on on the inside.                    Dennis,
"Dennis" nothing-- "Heber,"                  Dennis, Dennis!  
when are you going to stop locking           You're having a problem 
people up?  When are you going to            with communication, Dennis!  
stop these things?                           Dennis, Dennis, Dennis, 
--                                           you're just having a real 
*I'm* having a real problem, yeah,           problem here, now let's 
I am having a real problem listening         just address-- You-- It's 
to the garbage you're putting out!           very-- Yah, I understand 
(exasperated chuckle) You "understand."      Dennis.  Now listen.  You 
I'm having a problem with the fact           know the problem is you're 
that you lie, and you don't even *care*!     having here-- Dennis, 
It doesn't even make a *difference* to       Dennis, 
you, that you lie.                           Dennis, you know, 
                                             you're sounding a bit wild 
                                             here, (lowers voice) lemme 
                                             just calm down-- 
PRISCILLA: Heber, when are you               I-- (becoming stern) 
going to stop the RPF?  How many             Hey, Dennis-- 
people are in the RPF right now?             Dennis.  Calm down.  
                                             Dennis, listen:  

PRISCILLA: (stage whisper) It's 'Priscilla.'

Dennis (agrees):  That's Priscilla talking, not Dennis--

HEBER:  Dennis,  I'm talking to Dennis, but I'm going to get this 
particular thing taken up about the NAZIS, you know, first of all our 
organization has exposed the fact a number of NAZI individuals 
involved in various organizations, running drugs into this country.  And 
right now-- (Dennis interjects, unintelligible) --You bet your life.  
And-- the National President of the National Association of the Chiefs 
of Police has, really, endorsed our information, because we have exposed 
those particular NAZI elements.  And, you know Priscilla may remember, 
Margaret Singer is quoted as one of the, ah, key people, about various 
religions and so forth; Margaret Singer was, along with the Patron Saint 
of CAN, Mr. Lifton, attending a conference in 1978, and here's what CAN 
gets terribly terrified about: We expose the fact that those people were 
attending the German Union of Child Psychiatry, on religion--

DENNIS: (exasperated) Come on, let's get back to Scientology!

HEBER:  Nawwp, let's finish it up here, we're talking about us, because 
we are doing social reform areas, and in that particular conference, uh, 
Singer was there, it was sponsored by the German Union of Child 
Psychiatry, and by one of these front groups for deprogramming.  The 
German Union of Child Psychiatry had several interesting members, 
including Hildegard Hetzer, who ordered 25,000 children to their deaths!  
You see, out of that conference -- in, in the concentration camps -- and 
out of that conference.... Ah, if you're asleep, Priscilla, why don't 
you just, uh, you know, just lay over on the side, folks, she's falling 
asleep!  The point was that we brought up that information, and, Singer, 
you know was involved in it; I think that the fact that *we* have 
exposed NAZIS is a terrible terrifying thing to these people--

JANE: (incredulous but perky) Are you claiming that Dennis is a NAZI?

[[Dennis cracks up]]

HEBER: I-- No, Dennis claimed that, Dennis claimed that.  I didn't claim 
Dennis is a NAZI.  I claimed th--  

DENNIS:  No, I claim that your *organization* is *as* fascist as the 
NAZIS were and as dangerous as the NAZIS were before they came to power, 
and I want to see to it that they *never*-- there never *is* a world 
that is ruled by Ethics Officers and the Sea Org, because if there is, 
it'll be just as fascist as Hitler would have made it.  Thank you.

JANE:  Let's take a telephone call before we continue this--

[[she giggles, as Heber storms on..]]

HEBER: I think that people know
me well enough to know that I have 
done more on that issue--             DENNIS:  People know that you lie!
People know, Dennis, I have done 
more to handle that than you ever have--      JANE:  All right--
(Heber shifts gears)
And, I tell you what: You know I mean, 
here's the Law Enforcement News, on CAN, 
saying, you know, you people are really, 
uh, you know, something should be checked out about you-- 

DENNIS:  We're talking about Scientology, not CAN.

HEBER:  We're talking about both.  You're here: you put your 
organization on the line!  

DENNIS:  I'm not a part of CAN.         HEBER:  You --
I'm just an individual who got          Where do you live?
raped spiritually by Scientology.       Where do you live--  
And there have been plenty of others    Well, I will tell you--  
who got raped too.

Heber (engages 4WD-Lo): There's 
*physical* rape by members of CAN!  
And, you can talk about spiritual rape, 
which is a rather subjective concept--        DENNIS:  It is!  It's a
I think the Spiritual Rape of Man is          very subjective concept.
done by Psychiatry, and you know that, and 
you know that I oppose that kind of *rape*, 
because we've exposed it.                   
All-all right              JANE:  All right,
let's go                   let's go
to the telephhonne!        to a telephone call here... 

[[editor's note.  This is bizzare.  Heber abruptly echoes the host
as she breaks in, and he does it deliberately.  After listening to this 
passage numerous times, without paying much attention to it (it actually 
sounds like a wrinkled bit of tape at first) but then.. "no, it can't 
be.. but why would a workman be carrying a length of sewer pipe past 
Jane's microphone at that exact instant...." But, seriously, there's 
something in the "Reporter TRs" that calls for repeating words back at 
the reporter, as a means of establishing dominance.  Not that there's 
much chance of that here, but Heber is reaching ever more desperately, 
for every monkey-wrench in his toolbox]]

JANE:  ...let's go to Jean, 
who is calling from Hacienda Heights, Jean, you're on KFI.

CALLER:  Hi.  

JANE:  Hi.

HEBER:  What a battle, huh?  Here you are, Jean. (laughs)
CALLER: Well, I'm not a former member                 --
of Scientology, but my mother was,                    Uh-huh..
and she spent about nine years in the 
organization, and after they milked her 
for just about every cent they could, she 
finally came to her senses and left, and, uh--

DENNIS:  Good for her.

CALLER:  We're very, very pleased, yes, we really are.  She was working 
and, um, my father had just died, and she had a home paid for, and they 
came in there, and managed to coerce her to take out a loan for the full 
amount, or, for whatever amount she could get it for, and uh they also 
signed her up for a bunch of classes, that she never took, and they have 
never yet paid her back the money--  

HEBER:  Fine, then, if that          DENNIS:  Yeah, that is a
is true then write--  No--           problem, getting your money back.
Wait a minute.  
If that's true, write me--

CALLER:  She has written, and written--    HEBER:  Write to me--
And this is an interesting thing:          Write to me--
Scientology does not accept any kind 
of certified mail, however they do 
*deliver* certified mail. 

HEBER:  Well, write to me.  I am telling you, if there's a problem 
there, write to me.

PRISCILLA:  Do you accept certified mail, Heber?

HEBER:  I don't have to accept a certified mail, send me a regular 
letter, what's your problem, you know?

DENNIS:  Because it's proof--

CALLER:  Oh, she sent many letters, 
she's been a legal secretary for many 
years, so her letters were [intact?]        HEBER:  How would y--
and they went to all the right people, 
and she got all kinds of letters back, 
we have.. she now has an attorney 
handling it, because that was the 
only way to get any kind of--

DENNIS:  Yep, that's right,            
that's right.                          

HEBER: Fine, look-- I-- Fine.  Listen, I tell you, if there's a problem 
you can write to me, and I appreciate that-- I, you know we are the--

PRISCILLA:  Jean, did you see the Time magazine article for May 6th?

CALLER:  [She's in the] --Time magazine article, ma'am.

PRISCILLA:  Time magazine? 

CALLER:  Yes she is.

PRISCILLA: Oh-- Oh, okay.

JANE:  Her mom is in the Time magazine article.  Why is it that I keep 
hearing these stories over and over again?  These are unsolicited calls, 
these are people calling in -- Heber -- why do we hear the same story 
over and over again?  That-- lots of money involved, and they-- once 
they leave the Church they can't seem to get a refund?

HEBER:  I mean, this is "everybody," and we've had three calls in the 
last hour and a half-- well, ahmm, I don't think that three calls is 
exemplary of the whole thing, I know that I have a number of friends out 
there who are Scientologists, because I've lived in here in Los Angeles, 
I don't know whether those lines are available to them, or whether your 
screener's keeping them out.  I've had that happen on shows before and, 
uh-- Yeah, you laugh, Dennis--

DENNIS:  Yeah, the great conspiracy 
theory, that we've heard for so 
long.  The government is conspiring 
against you... and, you know, 
everybody's against Scientology--          HEBER:  We stood up to 
The reason the government is against       the IRS-- We--
you is because you're an illegal 
organization that engages in illegal 
acts.  Period.

HEBER:  If we were an illegal 
organization, we wouldn't *be* here--      DENNIS: That's right--
and you know that, because Scientology     And for-- for--
has stood up against the Internal 
Revenue Service for years, and we've 
*won* against them, we've *won* against 
other countries--                          DENNIS:  You haven't won 
--                                         anything.
We have won in every single vector, 
because, *countries* have come up 
against us.  *No* group has taken 
on the IRS like we have, and 
we have *won* against the 
Internal Revenue Service,            DENNIS:  You're gonna
and we will *continue* to win        overthrow the government, 
against them--                       I know, you guys are--
We're not gonna overthrow the        That's what you're trying
government, we're helping the        to do--
government because we're solving 
the problems they have with *drugs*, 
and I tell you what, you can, you    DENNIS: (pronounces)
can love the Internal Revenue        The problem that
Service for its criminal *acts*--    they have with drugs!
And-- (glibly enquiring)
Are you on drugs right now?   

DENNIS: (under his breath, croaks) God.

JANE: (perturbed) That is an unfair accusation--

HEBER:  No-- I said, *are* you.  *Are* you.  *Are* you.

JANE: (indignant) Well, he looks-- very lucid to me, Heber!

HEBER:  Well, *fine*, I just asked--

PRISCILLA:  Maybe we should go 
to another call.             HEBER: (in background, TR-3-ing)
                             Let's--   *Are* you?   Dennis?

JANE:  Yes, let's go to Jan, who's calling from Los Angeles--  
(to Heber) I think that's an unfair question.

CALLER: (launches)  Yeah I thought the call screener *was* biased, 
seein' all these calls here.  Every call's been anti-Scientology so far, 
and I don't think that's really very fair.

JANE: Well, you're on the air, aren't you?

CALLER: Well, yeah, it's about time--

JANE: Well, speak up!

CALLER: (ponderously) --I have a couple questions--

JANE: (not suffering fools gladly) Well, SPIT 'EM OUT! (snorts)

CALLER:  [I've heard] very good things about your drug program, 
and also I'd like to ask Heber, what is it like to be Clear?

[[Heber goes totally "verbal tech"]]

HEBER: Well, I tell you what it's like to be Clear, it's the first time, 
to come walking out, you know, and look at the world for the first time, 
and feel like, there is a wonderful world out there, that there are a 
great number of people out there who are wonderful people, and I've 
gained a great number of friends because of that, and I'll tell you, 
it's a feeling of looking to the future, knowing that I will go on, as a 
spiritual being, that I will live throughout eternity.  That's what it's 
like, and feeling that it's a growing thing, an ascending thing, that uh
there is *life*, that there is going to be a *future*, that there is 
going to be a created light of life and happiness and healthiness, 
that's what I feel like it's like for me.  And I'm glad somebody asked 
me that question, (chuckling) it's the first time I've been asked that 
on this radio show.

JANE:  Also, she wanted to know about your drug program.

HEBER:  The drug rehabilitation programs, uh Scientology has sponsored 
NarCONon, which is a very successful drug rehabilitation program, which 
is by the way, is suported by various governments -- in Sweden, in 
Norway, ahh, is also supported that way in Italy, and it is supported 
now in Spain, and so forth.  We have taken tens of thousands of people 
off of drugs -by the way, who are not necessarily members of the 
Church.  Its.. Just.. I have met with women whose sons lives were 
destroyed because they were on drugs.  We have taken them off of drugs.  
We have the most effective drug rehabilitation programs in the world.  
And we are now working in Chilocco, Oklahoma, with the native Americans, 
to help them come off of drugs, where they have endemic situations out 

Now, I tell you what, you know, all of this noise, all of this attack, 
all of this noise, is because we are effective, we take people off of 
drugs.  Who gets hurt by 100,000 people coming off of drugs?  Who gets 
hurt by a man who comes off of cocaine and heroin, who's making five 
robberies a day, to pay for that habit?  And then increasing the police 
protection, and increasing all the other stuff that has to go on in the 
neighborhood.  Who is hurt by that?  I- Only the people who are hurt, 
are the people who are pro-drugs.  The only people are hurt who want 
to keep people in that particular situation.  I will tell you, 
Scientology has tremendous programs, I have affidavit after affidavit, 
success stories by the millions, of people who have been helped by 
Scientology.  All of this rhetoric, all of this noise--

PRISCILLA:  Yes.  All of this rhetoric.

HEBER: (icily)  All of this rhetoric from my opposition here, will not 
change the fact that Scientology is the road to total freedom.  It will 
not change the fact that people are leavin-- living happier lives.  
Yes, we're attacked.  I think all great religions were attacked.  It 
hasn't been as bad as the Christians.  They *killed* them.  They threw 
them to the lions, you know?  Those people had a horrible time.  And 
they were, you know, burned by-- burned at the stake, and nailed to the 

DENNIS:  Don't compare Hubbard with Jesus, *please*.

HEBER:  I would *never* compare him with Jesus--

DENNIS: That's right--

HEBER:  --and, I think that's *horrible* that you brought that up, 
and he would be *appalled*, because he never wanted to
be put in that position.               --
JANE:  ...Tell me, Dennis, are         HEBER:  Who *says* that?
these programs helping people?

DENNIS:  No, they aren't, they create a dependency that is worse than 
the dependency on drugs, they create a dependency on Scientology.  

HEBER:  Ahhh--

DENNIS:  And, the dependency on Scientology.. is a dependency that is 
really harder to break than a plain addiction to drugs.

HEBER:  Who said that?

DENNIS:  *I* just said it -- didn't you hear me?

HEBER: (stammers) Uh, I originally heard it from Jolly West, but go 

DENNIS:  I just said it, because I know.  I ran the program at Flag, I 
know that it creates a dependency.  The Purification rundown has no 
basis in scientific fact, they have yet to take any-- 

HEBER:  What's the dependency?--  What's the dependency?

DENNIS:  Hey-- wait, wait, I was asked a question, are you going to 
permit me to answer the question?

JANE:  Please answer.          HEBER:  Yes.  What's the dependency?

DENNIS:  Okay, the fact of the matter is that none of the programs, 
neither the Purification rundown nor any other thera-- quote therapy of 
Scientology has ever been demonstrated to work by the scientific method, 
and that's why-- that's why--

HEBER:  Ahhh, ah, okay--

DENNIS:  --It's all anecdotal.  It's all anecdotal evidence, and the 
fact is that it's never been documented that any of this stuff works at 
all, except as a placebo cure.

HEBER:  You do not know--

JANE:  Now, these drug cures you're talking about, are they done.. 

PRISCILLA:  -- with no documentation.     HEBER:  Hold it--

JANE: --are they done in your community only, or are they done in the 
general public, how does it work? 

HEBER:  They are done in both 
places, and-- wait a minute--    DENNIS:  They are done in a closed 
Dennis, Dennis!                  environment, and don't just-- please, 
(wheedling) Hold on!             don't 'Dennis' me!  I have something 
Okay--                           to say here too, we've listened to 
Dennis-- No.  You,               you.  Now let me talk.  
you just made some 
charges, both of you.
Of course, now 
I've been around the world and met with the people in those programs, 
which are by the way supported by governments.  What you have found is 
that in those programs-- by the way, you've been gone for ten or fifteen 
years, I don't know how long, *but* there have been scientific studies 
done, to show that this does work--

PRISCILLA:  They've been done by *their* people--

HEBER:  No.  They've been done by 
other people who are not 
Scientologists--                      PRISCILLA:  By FASE, which is 
They've been done by other people--   the Scientology organization.
Wait a minute!   *Scientific*!  
If you wanna talk--                   PRISCILLA:  And it is simply 
Priscilla--                           niacin,
Priscilla--                           vitamins, sauna, oil, and a 
Oh! (suddenly outraged)               wee bit of exercise.
You know, you don't want              That's all it is.  It makes you 
anyone coming off of drugs,           sweat, but it doesn't do anything.   
do you!   You - don't - 
want - anyone 
off of drugs, and that's the truth!   DENNIS:  That's an absurd charge!
You are *for* drugs!  You are for     that's the most absurd
drug slavery and that is exactl--     thing I've ever heard!
You want to destroy--                 Can't you make sense, 
you want to destroy the spirit,       come on, make sense, try
you want to destroy anything          to make sense!
which works. Now, (calming self)      (Dennis chuckles)
I will make sense.                                   -- Please!
The point-- I want to come back to this--

JANE:   I would love to come back to this, after this break; this is 
KFI, AM 640.

[[file kfi8.rm]]

JANE:  This is Jane Norris on KFI AM 640, more stimulating talk radio, 
yes!  We are talking about Scientology, yeah and, admittedly, we haven't 
gotten a lot of your phone calls on tonight, so we will continue after 
our guests leave at 11:00, and we will put your telephone calls on the 
air, you will get your opportunity to speak your piece, that's what KFI 
is all about.  Meanwhile we are in studio with Heber Jentzsch, President 
of the Church of Scientology International, Priscilla Coates, who is a 
member of the Cult Awareness Network, and also Dennis Erlich, a former 
Scientologist.  Heber, you were continuing....

HEBER:  --When you talk about something being scientific, if somebody 
gets up there on a hill and they make-- something called a wheel, no 
one's seen it before, and they say "Look, this thing rolls, and it goes 
own a hill, and it rolls round and round, and it's called a wheel."  
That can be proof that it works.  When you take the fact that there's-- 
there are hundreds-- ah, like a hundred-thousand or more people who've 
come off of drugs.  And those people are off of drugs very effectively, 
because, you see, there's something--

DENNIS:  You haven't got a hundred-thousand members. 
                                             --  So, where are
HEBER:  Well, ah, ah-- you know--            these hundred-thousand
That's kind of interesting, you know,        people who have come off 
because we have eight-million members...     drugs?
The Boston Globe said, if there's only 
fifty-thousand members, how come.. 
there are (laughing) you know, how come there's so much attack on the 
Churgh of Scientology, You wouldn't care about it.  Because--

DENNIS:  Because of the number of 
lawyers you have, not the number of members.     HEBER:  Ahhhh--
                                                 Let's go back to--
PRISCILLA:  And the way you spend                We're--
your money attacking.  and the                   We're handling--
private investigators you hire. 

HEBER:  And they're effective, and that's 
why we're still alive and standing--           DENNIS:  I have a bunch 
There are a lot of people who are making       of questions that--
benefit, from the use of that drug 
rehabilitation technology--

PRISCILLA:  There are forty in Oklahoma.  Forty patients.

HEBER:  At a time.                 PRISCILLA:  That doesn't
At a time, at a time.              add up to very many--
And I talked to hundreds           Because the courts only
in Spain--                         allow that many.
And I talked to hundreds-- Yeah.
I talked to hundreds over 
there in Spain--                   DENNIS:  In Spain?
Yes, in Spain--                    Weren't you arrested
                                   in Spain recently?

HEBER: (smooth roads fair weather, what are your crimes)
Oh, I was there two years ago, were you involved in that?  
                                   -- Anyway--                           
DENNIS:  I'm asking if you         I--
were arrested, and for what?       Well, I--
Isn't that a question?  Can we     
get an answer to that?

HEBER:  (blusters) Wh-hn.
I was arrested in Spain, they      
let it go, they let me go, okay?   DENNIS:  For what?
Whuh.  Let's just go  
back to this fact that--           PRISCILLA:  It was referred to
Huh?                               a higher court.
                                   JANE:  What was the charge?
HEBER:  *Being* a Scientologist,
was the charge, because they       DENNIS:  No, that wasn't the charge.
didn't have a warrant-- they       
didn't have a warrant with my
name on it.  They arrested a       PRISCILLA:   Falsification of--
whole bunch of people--
They arrested people for-- 
being Scientologists, they said        DENNIS:  That's absurd.
anyone who is a foreigner-- No!        This goes back to your
*I* *was* *there* Mis-ter Er-lich,     conspiracy theory--
I was there!  And I spoke with         Mr. Hubbard's conspiracy theory--
these people who had come out 
of those mountains, who had been 
treated, and who had used narCONon, and come off of drugs, when all of
the programs over there had failed. The psychiatrists were giving them
more drugs, and they were claiming a two-to-three percent success rate,
charging $30,000 to do it, and the people were going back onto drugs! 
*We* had a success rate -- independent study, sociologically done, 
over there, which was done by the government, 72% to 78% success rate--  

PRISCILLA:  When narCONon was studied in Michigan--

HEBER:  No-NO!  You guys              DENNIS:  You claim whatever you
want drugs!  You guys want drugs!     want--  That's absurd--
You are for it!  You are trying       That's absurd--
to destroy any drug program--
No-no--                               JANE:  Heber, give Dennis 
Dennis, you want drugs.               a chance to respond--
Do you want people off 
of drugs?   Do you want               DENNIS:  That's absurd,
them off of drugs?                    that's totally absurd.
Prozac is in there, 
IT'S A KILLER!!  It is 
a psychiatric killer drug!            

JANE:  Heber, I'm gonna have to cut 
your microphone off, if you           HEBER:  Fine--                                
don't give him a chance to            He won't--                            
respond!                              He won't talk about drugs.

DENNIS:  I have a list of questions from former members, I run a group
of former members, a sort of encounter group of former--

JANE:  First, answer my question, what was the charge, in Spain?

DENNIS: Ah, you know, 
I'm not even sure.               Heber (triumphantly):
 --                              You weren't even there.
I'm not sure.

PRISCILLA:  Falsification of records, coercion, capital flight; they 
called it a pure and simple charlatanism.

JANE:  All right.  You have--              HEBER:  And obviously the 
I will allow you to ask *one*              judge said, "Mr.Jentzch you 
question--  Give it your best shot--       can go," because there was
                                           no evidence, so they let it--
PRISCILLA:  You told him your 
mother was dying, Heber, you 
made up another story.

HEBER:   **YOU!!**

[[ the tone of pure shock in Heber's voice, at Being Found Out,
cannot be rendered in ASCII.  It rings, it echoes. Rage and terror.]]

DENNIS:  Whoa, listen to this.            HEBER:  Naw.
[[others boggle]]                         That is--
The louder he talks, the more truth,      That is--  Hold on!

HEBER:  You talk about my mother that way?  That tells me exactly what 
you're like!  *You* talk about my mother that way, and you say that you 
love these people?  You talk about my mother that way?  I am angry about 
that!  Because, my mother *was* dying, and my mother *is* very ill, and 
has been for some time.  You talk about that?  That's the kind of person 
you are!  I have *no* support for you, I am angry about that!  And you, 
Dennis, if you join with that, just.. That's the kind of thing you 
people support!  That is absolutely unconscionable! You talk about my 
mother that way, Priscilla?  (growling) How do you feel about people?

JANE:  Dennis, ask your question.   

DENNIS:  Umm..(sighs)             HEBER:  No, I--                    
                                  I-- I--
JANE:  Hold on, Heber, 
let him ask his question.         HEBER:  Do you think that's okay?
You-- Heber, you have             You're the moderator, do you think 
been dominating this conver-      that's okay?  Do you think it's okay?
sation since you walked into      --        
this studio.  I think that        But, do you think it's okay?
you oughtta calm down, and 
give them a chance to respond.  

HEBER:  I don't like that being said about my mother.
*She* said that, do you think it's okay?    

JANE:  You're turning this 
into a major issue--             HEBER:  I am *furious* about that!
I think what you do--            I am *furious* about it!               
--is take the--                  You can laugh about it--
                                 That's my mother!

[[The others are chuckling at Heber's adroit use of Scientology, to turn 
the subject away from his arrest in Spain.  Dennis begins to explain]]

DENNIS:  He takes control of the--      HEBER:  No.
                                        [[ quod et demonstrandum ]]

JANE:  I think what you do is take 
an issue and turn it into-- if it's--      HEBER:  She said that!
something you don't want to answer, 
you will not answer, and you create 
an issue.

DENNIS: (murmers) Exactly.  Exactly.

HEBER:  Every American out there who thinks it's okay to say that about 
somebody's mother, fine.  Join these people, (the growling tone again) I 
don't think you do.  I don't either--

DENNIS:  Can I ask my question?        

JANE:  Please ask your question.

DENNIS:  This question is directed from a group of ex-scientologists, 
and it's a sincere question.  We went through hours and hours of 
confessionals, and all of our, quote, sins, are written down in folders, 
and some people have stacks of folders like ten feet tall.  We would 
like our folders *back* from these people, because they can use it
against us.

JANE: That's your best question? (laughing) That's your best question?

DENNIS:  And-- when will our-- confessional folders be returned to us, 
and how?

JANE: (swallows)  Heber.

HEBER:  Is that in your request?  I mean,
I don't know what he's talking about.
(louder)                                   DENNIS: No, he doesn't know 
No, I tell you what we'll do--             what he's talking about--
no, tell you what we do, Dennis--          "Send in my request." 
No-no.  Send in your request--             Oh, thank you--  
You come with us, and we will shred 
them in front of you.
                                           JANE:  That's a pretty good 
DENNIS: (chuckles) Okay--                  answer, hey--

(crosstalk) [[they all seem to agree, to a point]]

HEBER: No-no, wait a minute, that's his *best question*.  And you think 
we-- you know, that's bad?  We'll shred your folders in front of you.

DENNIS:  That's a-- that's a concern, of ex-members.

JANE:  What's in your folder?

DENNIS:  My *confessionals*--

PRISCILLA:  Everything th-- Every thought--  

JANE:  Every thought, every action?

DENNIS:  See--they-- Exactly.  Everything that I've ever confessed, uh, 
in Scientology.  Uh, fifteen years of confessionals.  And, the ex-
members have requested, for years and years, that their PC folders be - 
they're called PC folders - be returned to them, and, uh, they have not 
been able to get this done.

HEBER:  You know, those folders have been shredded in the past, I mean, 
of course, what it means is, you know for all time and eternity, you're 
not in Scientology, and, that's fine, that's your choice--

DENNIS: That's fine with me.  That is definitely fine with me.

HEBER:  But anyway, I think that, you know--

DENNIS:  that's a concern of a lot of people, that's why I ask it as, 
quote, my best question.  But I have plenty of other questions.

JANE: Okay, let's-- let's go to a telephone call, Dan has a question, 
from Sherman Oaks, Dan, you're on KFI. 

CALLER:  Yeah, I have a friend, who, uh, his wife has been going through 
Scientology, she's from a foreign country, she's been in this country 
about two years, and you see a dramatic change in her, that I think is 
not for the better, suddenly she starts talking about all the courses 
she wants to take, and how that's the only thing she wants money for, 
she's starting to work another job, to get the extra money for this, 
anyone who says anything critical about Scientology, be it Time 
magazine, the L.A. Times, those are liars, et cetera, will not brook any 
sort of, you know, *inquisitive* criticism, and -- it's amazing 
to see this change, this is a very sweet, nice person.

JANE: Okay--               

CALLER:  Priscilla, Dennis, you guys are doing a great job-- 
Nail this guy!

DENNIS:  Well,             
I have an answer--                 HEBER:  Is she nas-- Is she 
I have an answer                   nasty to you?  
for that--  I have                 Is she being
an answer to that--                bad to you? -- Ahem.
Scientology systematically destroys a person's ability 
to question or think critically about things.  Ah, the
reason that is, is that you have to suspend your criticism,
and go through the processes of Scientology, to see that 
they work, in other words, that's actually part of what 
you have to do: you have to suspend 
your criticism in order to go through 
the auditing, or the training 
that they give you--                   HEBER:  Well, I believ--
It's all-- it's all,                   --
it all induces a mild state of         --
hypnosis, which, over years--          Ahhm, uh huh..
which over years, can add up
to a walking, you know, a walking hypnosis.

JANE:  Heber, what's happening?  Why is 
she disassociating from her family and friends?

HEBER: Well eh- uh, are you still on the line, caller?

JANE: Yeah, caller's still there.

HEBER:  Are you still there?

CALLER:  Yeah, I'm still here.

HEBER:  So, are you saying that she's being uh, very vicious to you, and 
attacking you, and so forth? is she some--

CALLER:  If you raise the issue of something being wrong in Scientology, 
I asked her about the Time Magazine article, immediately, it was, 
'Do you believe everything that Time prints?'
I said, well, gee, I've read stuff in--          HEBER:  Nah, I-- I--
the L.A. Times about--  'Do you believe          --
everything that is printed in the L.A Times?'    -- No, I don't!
Any criticism--                                  No, I don't believe
                                                 everything in Time
DENNIS: No, but that's the line,                 magazine eith--
that's the line that they're fed--               --
CALLER:  ..you sit there and change these        Hold on--
things around, you use these little debate       
techniques and get totally off the subject--          
You know--                                       DENNIS: Exactly.

HEBER:  I'll go right to the subject of Time magazine!  Let's go to th--

CALLER:  ...talk about your mother, 
in a reasonable fashion--                 HEBER: A "reasonable fashion?"
about a story you used to get out of      --
a another country, for a charge in--      -- Naw, I-- I was--
And then you blow a fuse                  -- My mother was--
on this program!                          -- Huh, yeah, I blew a fuse
--                                        because I don't like people
--                                        talking about my mother that
--                                        way--
I'd like to come after you even harder,
and *make* you blow a fuse, tonight! 
Because, I'll bet, if you suffered any   HEBER: Well, I tell you what--
sort of "radiation sickness," I'll bet   -- (bristling)
you have documentation--                 You bet your life I do!
--  (crosstalk)
-- you are a liar and cheat, and a con-man!  I'll get off the line, and 
listen to his tirade afterwards.

(Dennis laughs)

HEBER:  Huh, I don't think that deserves a response, because I'd talk to 
somebody who's intelligent.  Ah, I, uh I think that it's very clear that 
there is a concern about the fact, in that Time magazine article, that 
we are exposing drugs, and we are exposing the fact that, these kinds of 
drugs like this killer-drug Prozac 
is taking peoples lives, 
and there's somebody who's             [[(Priscilla sighs heavily]]
concerned about it, you know -- 
I dunno, why there is so much concern, but I tell you what, I'm 
supported by a lot of media, and I saw Dan Rather hit it real hard, a 
week ago, and, I've seen it on, uh Donohugh, I've seen it on ah, a 
number of national TV shows, exposing this killer-drug, it's taking 
people's lives.  We are--

DENNIS: --Your program was in the Wall Street Journal,
exactly what your agenda is, with regard to drug companies--

HEBER:  And, you know what happened?         PRISCILLA: Scientology is 
You know what happened?                      orchestrating a campaign  
You bet your life.  We are showing it.       against--
And you know what happened?  They lost
one billion one hundred million dollars in about two weeks, after they 
put that article on the Wall Street Journal, and you know why?  Because 
people knew it was phoney, they knew it was destructive, No one's going 
to take a drug. And that, that company, Eli Lilly, was producing Oraflex 
before that.  The Food and Drug Administration took it off, because it 
was killing people.  Well, they're puttin' out another one that's 
killing people, and, I'll tell you what, Dennis, we're gonna continue to 
go after it, 'cuz we don't believe that that kind of drug should be on 
the market, and, that it causes people to commit violence.  We're going 
to continue; yes, your hand's raised, okay?  I'm out.
JANE: (had been trying to call for a break) Y-- yes, this is KFI 640, 
we will continue our conversation about Scientology, after this break, 
on KFI.

[[file kfi9.rm]]

JANE:  This is KFI AM 640, Jane Norris with you until midnight tonight, 
we have a conversation going about Scientology, and I want to try and 
get some of your telephone calls on the air.  We will continue our 
conversation after eleven o'clock tonight, your responses to the 
conversation that we've had about Scientology.  I want to get your 
telephone calls on the air, I know we haven't had much of an opportunity 
to do that, but please hang in there with me, and we will get you on the 
line.  Alaina is calling from Sylmar, Alaina, you're on KFI.

CALLER:  Hello.  I am twelve years old, and I'm calling on my own bill, 
and, I am a Scientologist, and I want to say how good it is, and how 
much it has helped our family and my parents.

JANE: Ah, how long have you been a member, Alaina?

CALLER:  All my life.

JANE:  Mmm-hmm, were your parents Scientologists, and then you were 
born, and.. they indoctrinated you or you became involved, also?

CALLER:  Yes, they've been involved for over fifteen years.

JANE:  And, do your parents live with the Church too?

CALLER: Ah, yes.

JANE:  Mn-kay. So, you live and are a member of the Church, and you 
do every-day activities -- how are your playmates, what do -- do you 
play with other Scientology kids, or do you get to play with other 
people too?

Caller.  I don't mind any other other religion, 
we are not prejudiced of any religion--

JANE: No, I'm asking you, do you stay inside the Church, pretty much, 
or do you get to go to school with other kids, how does it work?

CALLER:  I get to go to school with whoever I want and I can be with 
whoever I want.

JANE: Where do you go to school?

CALLER:  Well, currently I am home-schooling.  My school that I will be 
going to, and, that I have previously been to, is both Scientology 

JANE:  Okay, so you've really never been in public school.

CALLER:  Oh.. I have not been a Publi-- in a public school, but I have 
been.. in private schools; they are not Scientology schools.

JANE:  Mm-hm, you sound very intelligent, you're obviously not lacking 
for education.  Is this a common practice, Heber, do kids that're born 
into Scientology, do they pretty much stay exclusive to the group, or--
Do they--

HEBER: Naw, naw, there's..(chuckles) with all the membership we have 
internationally, people go to regular schools, ahm, and there are the 
schools that, ah, which use Study Technology, which is very effective. 
Mr Hubbard has developed an incredible technology for study, and there 
are a number of schools springing up all over the world, which are using 
those technologies, ah, in fact 2.5 million native Africans have 
studied, and use Study Technology in 
South Africa, so ahm, this is 
something, and, by the way, 
he sounds very -- uh,  she?                 JANE:  She.  Alaina.
Oh, sorry--                                 --
Alaina sounds very intelligent--            She is, she does.
And, she's twelve years old, and her        --
parents are Scientologists, and I think     --
she has a right to her religion.            JANE:  I agree.
I think she has a right to live it, and
to uh, heh, to do as she wishes.  Huhn. 
Home-schooling is by the way not just a 
concept with Scientologist, I want you to
know that there are a lot of Christian groups
that have home-schooling, and, uhh, they're
very effective, by the way, I've seen studies 
on it, Christian schools, where their IQs are higher, 
where their morals are much higher, and there's much, much less drugs 
on their campuses, or are --in their homes obviously, and their lives 
are drug-free, I think it's a great idea.

JANE:  You have a comment?

DENNIS:  Yes I do, uhm, I have four daughters, and they were all 
raised in Scientology, and their education was atrocious, based on 
Scientology.  Uh, their contacts with the outside world, were minimal.  
And, when they finally did make contact with the outside world, they 
had about two or three years of catch-up to do.  That's all of them.

HEBER:  Well, makes you a poor father, my daughter's doing great, 
and my kid is doing great-great, my daughter is five years old she 
reads, uh, way ahead of her time, and my boy is six, and he's reading 
way ahead of his time, and I jus-- because I spent the time with them, 
and used the technology that L. Ron Hubbard has, of study, with them, 
and I tell you what: There's nothing wrong with helping people learning 
how to study, 'specially when you've got such a high illiteracy rate in 
this country, and have an extremely high drop-out rate in this school 
system, in this country -- (contempuously) people who can't even read a 
menu, people who can't even read a bus card.

PRISCILLA:  The big secret 
of the Study Tech is 
looking up words.              HEBER: (lugubrious) Well good!  Good!
--                                   JANE:  What does that mean--
Looking up words in the              --Looking up--
dictionary. I dare say               Oh, I see. Well, that's--
we all think  that's a fairly            
good technique, but there's 
nothing secret or magical 
about it.

DENNIS:  Hubbard certainly 
didn't invent it. Heh, heh...     HEBER: Well, there's--

JANE:  Well, if he can get         
kids to read, I gotta applaud      
that, because -- they don't!     DENNIS:  In any case, in any case--

HEBER: The schools are failing in that respect, and Mr. Hubbard has 
helped an awful lot of many-- uh, people do that, and we're continuing 
to do it, we're very successful at it.

JANE: Let's take another call.
(the next caller, Roxanne, has hung up, so...)
Let's go... to John who's calling from San Diego;
John, you're on KFI.


HEBER: Hi, John.

CALLER: I have one question, one question only, and I'd like a straight 
answer to it...

HEBER: (Jumping in at the head of the line, bracing) Okay...

CALLER:  ...I would like someone to describe the process of exorcism, 
uh, Dennis really never finished.
DENNIS:  Yeah, I would *like* to talk about that--
HEBER:  (Barging in) Well, you can pick it up in Dianetics, Modern 
Science of Mental Health..[[Dennis sighs heavily]]..and what it does is 
deal with the mental image pictures that a person has and it can deal 
with a person's past going back into his past life.
DENNIS:  (Cutting back in) It's got nothing to do with that. 
                                      HEBER:  Well, it *does* have 
                                      everything to do with it and you
 DENNIS:  It doesn't have            *know* that.  Dianetics Modern
 anything to do with that.           --
 DENNIS:  [to the caller]            of Mental Health --
 Do you want an answer or            --
 do you want to hear what            Dianetics, Dianetics --
 the propaganda front is?            --
                                     Dianetics Modern Science of 
 CALLER: I would like an             Mental Health has an answer
 answer from Dennis.                 to that -- 
 DENNIS:  Okay, well I'll            and Dennis knows that Dianetics
 give you one.                       has the answer to it.
 DENNIS:  He's blocking.  He's blocking!
 HEBER:  I am not blocking that! [to caller] You know, you're sitting
                                             here, John....
 CALLER: Could I have my          
 answer please?  
 DENNIS:  I would like to
 answer, but he won't stop --     JANE:  Well, this is the second
                                  time it's come up, and [exasperated]
 HEBER: [sardonically] Suure --   neither time have we gotten an answer!
 Yaknow --  Look --
 I'm not here to discuss--        CALLER:  I heard the other answer,
 I am not here to                 I'd like to hear Dennis'.
 discuss the religion of 
 Scientology --                   DENNIS:  I'd love to answer but Heber
                                  won't stop talking.  
 HEBER:  [insistently]            That's the thing,
 Dennis, Dennis . . .             you won't stop to let me --
 DENNIS:  This is the technique that he drills before he comes on an
 interview like this so he won't have to answer a question.
 HEBER:  [Very loudly] Oh!  Give me a break, Dennis!  Come on!  You know 
better than that! [You were in for] fifteen years --
 JANE:  Why won't you let him answer the caller?
 CALLER:  Could I have Dennis' answer please?  Dennis' answer?
 HEBER:  *I said* that Dianetics Modern Science of Mental Health has an 
answer to it.
 JANE:  Now there are three of us asking -- let him answer -- All right. 
[Heber's mike is cut]

JANE: Okay.  There ya go.

HEBER:  All right, cut me off, all right --
JANE:  Well?  You won't stop!

DENNIS: Okay, now I can answer? (chuckling) That's great.  That's great, 
thank you very much.  The exorcism process Hubbard describes -- that... 
the individual has ended up, over the process of millions and millions 
of years, plagued by thousands and thousands of entities -- besides 
himself -- that are occupying his body.  These entities speak to him and 
give him messages which are his...reactive mind, they call it.  [[Heber 
bursts in]]

 HEBER: Well, she cut off my microph--  [[Evidently, Priscilla Coates
 Hey!  Get your hands offa me!          attempts to restrain Heber, who
 You get your hands offa me!            grows instantly furious. 
 You keep your hands offa me!           Others are chortling at
                                        the spectacle.]]
 JANE: Let it go, Priscilla, we don't
 want to start a fight!

 HEBER: I'm not gonna start a fight,          [Priscilla says, "Is this 
 but if she puts her hands on-- I don't       any way to treat a lady?"]
 care if you are -- you call yourself
 a lady, you know -- you better *watch it*,    DENNIS: Look at this 
 Priscilla! [palpable menace]  Wouldn't        technique.... 
 be the first time!  No, I mean my
 microphone's cut off, I'll just --          PRISCILLA: Why don't we
                                             describe what's happening.

 HEBER: ("reporting") My microphone 
has been cut off, and I'm standing 
here next to Dennis talking...  

DENNIS:  This is the kind of       HEBER: Well... because I don't 
thing that really --               feel my microphone should be cut off!

CALLER: It seems pretty clear that he doesn't want you to answer.

DENNIS: No, he definitely               
doesn't want me to answer...           HEBER:  "I tell you what...
This is a serious thing to him,        You people... you people have...
that I'm talking about exorcism,       I think that, you know...  
but that's what Scientology is         about your --  
actually about... that's exactly       [resumes shouting]
what Scientology is about --           Because you love drugs don't you! 
the.. exorcism process is..            You think drugs is a wonderful 
The exor--                             thing, don't you!   
(giggles) Listen to this...            You love drugs, don't you Dennis!   
                                       Dennis, you love drugs, don't 
                                       you, huh?  You love drugs.  And 
                                       you hate us because we take 
                                       people off of drugs. 
                                       [querulously] Are you on drugs 
CALLER: This is pretty cool, though.   right now Dennis?  Dennis. 
                                       (demanding) What are you on?  
                                       What are you on, Dennis?  
[Dennis' microphone cut off by host]

JANE: All right, we're gonna take a break -- here on KFI.

[[Heber can be heard continuing to argue, in the background]]: 

HEBER: [All I can do is] stand over here and talk, you know?  That's all 
I can do!  You know?

 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

(end of recording)

Original Commentary

Heber Jentzsch looked worried. Worse yet, he seemed "off his feed." He was confronting a pair of semi-informed news anchors from a local TV station the evening before the explosive Time Magazine article hit the newsstands. The newsreaders were citing the charges made in the Time magazine article.

Joining the broadcast by telephone from Cape Cod, Massachusetts was Earl Cooley, the acerbic, venomous legal mouthpiece of Scientology.

Uncharacteristically, Jentsch seemed to fumble his usually oily-smooth responses. Cooley jumped in hotly (joke) several times before Jentsch could flub a respose. In a rapid-fire, Walter Winchell-like cadence, Cooley alternately hurled accusations and threats against Time Magazine and the reporter who wrote the article. This was vintage Cooley. An expert using the drills that the Guardian's office used to teach its Public Relations people. Attack, Attack, Attack! "The bank follows the line of attack", Hubbard used to say.

While it was vintage Cooley, it certainly was not vintage Jentsch. His usual arrogant, smugness and "I am in charge here" smile were missing. He looked grim. Maybe he could not see the newsreaders directly, being forced to look only into a camera, maybe the makeup people goofed and gave him that greyish pallor, maybe he was tired from lack of sleep, or maybe he was just tired of dissembling (look it up) to the press after all these years.

In reviewing the tape of the news broadcast it was difficult at first to spot the cause of Heber's distress. Finally things seemed to come into focus. Heber was covered from head to foot with almost invisible, little spirit-like things! Each one was about the size of a raisin. These little shriveled-up entities must be the famous OT III "Body Raisins" Hubbard claimed possessed all of us. There they were on Heber, visible to the entire TV audience, seeming to have a sentience all their own! (certainly Heber didn't) Worse for Heber: they were influencing his mind and behavior, and he didn't even know they were there...swarming over every nook and cranny of his body. This startling discovery also explains Heber's bizarre behavior the following week.

There seems to be no other explanation for Heber's parading a complete set of ridiculous allegations, downright lies, attempted intimidation in the week that followed than to say that he was under the influence of his BRs gone amuck. He kept saying that Scientology had 8 million members, that 100,000 people had been freed from drugs and even that the author of the Time magazine article was a stalking horse for the IRS. When asked a direct question about Scientology, Heber would launch off into a different topic.

That Sunday night, almost a week after that issue of Time hit the newsstands, Heber appeared on a radio talk show on KFI in Los Angeles. The worst thing possible happened: Heber was completely overcome by his abundant complement of Body Raisins. Some say Heber was also suffering from another manifestation of Body Raisins - clumping - wherein they glom onto each other in a big, sticky, ugly mass of evil influence and force a person into completely wacko behavior. The host of the talk show even had to shut down Heber's microphone. The BRs must have been keeping his jaw moving as Heber vented his wrath in a loud, wild, wailing "scream-of-unconciousness".

One of the guests on the show, Dennis Erlich, started to give an explanation of an aspect of Scientology's occult "theology" concerning exorcism.

Heber, unasked, started screaming in a most ungracious manner. BR possession had taken over. The show's host promptly cut off his microphone. Not to be thwarted from blocking the revelation of his cult's most guarded (and expensive) secrets, Heber rose out of his chair, went around the table to where the other guests were seated and from his mouth came the strangest manner of emanations (perhaps he was even "speaking in foot?").