Talk:Freefree.ps/@Farid/114823210261425398

When I boosted this post on TootCat, it was reported as "anti-semitism" by another TootCat user I know and trust. The following conversation with them ensued:

Me:

Okay, I thought the post made a good point. States don't have a "right to exist"; people do.

Am I overlooking something?

Them:

This, and their whole instance is pure antisemitic hate propaganda.

So. Am I to make you personally responsible for YOUR monster of a "president"? For every single US president of the last 30 years bombing civilians in the Middle East, killing children there with glee, drones and pizza in their mouths? Am I to HATE you for that? Are you already actively supporting the Land Back movement then? Because that land your house is on, is muuuch less yours than Israel is fucking Israel.

Tell me again the name of your god. Jesus of... New York, was it? No, wait. Nazareth! Show it to me on the map, ok? "Colonialism" my ass.

Free Palestine? Show me Palestine. That's the whole landmass Israel is on, too, and has been since ancient forever. All of this is pure antisemitism and has NOTHING to do with the horrors the Israeli government is, indeed, committing, too.

Netanyahu AND the Hamas are power mad fascist war lords, BOTH parties, and all of the civilians there are ground to bloody pulp for this right now, and this should end, but not by handing everything to one side. It's not that different from the Pakistan/India conflict. None of these are easy to solve. Nothing here is black-and-white. There is no good side. Only victims in the middle.

There's going to be a big "oh" :PikaWorried: moment for everyone in the future when people remember who the Hamas are. These people are then going to turn around and still be happy because then they are going to be back to being racist against Arabs. The important thing here is to always have a legitimised enemy to hate on and harrass./sarc

I guess I'll need to find myself a new home, right? 🫩

Me:

My ADHD brain is obviously missing something here; it seemed to me like the exact opposite -- individuals are not automatically responsible for the acts of their governments (or other groups). Saying that a state has a "right to exist" plays on sympathies towards its people (yes, Israeli citizens have a right to exist in spite of the acts of their supposedly-elected leaders) while actually doing the opposite.

I'm in the middle of making dinner, so I apologize if there's something staring me in the face that I'm just not seeing. (It's been a day... on and off fedi...)

Them:

He is saying Israel has no right to exist.

Well then start with the US, then. No?

So Iran has a right to occupy Palestine or the Hamas have a right to build a new state there, encompassing the whole area? Why?

And if they get to do that they WILL kill the individuals of their enemy's side, don't you worry. They don't mince their words even now, it's always "death to all jews".

I can't. I'm aware you feel this as the "team Hamas vs team Israel" sporting event it is being handled as and nothing of the obvious things I'm saying will cut it, since those are no secrets and I'm not the first person ever to explain this.

This dirty zionazi is going to look for somewhere to go tomorrow. It's too late tonight.

Me:

I would agree that the US has no "right" to exist either. It exists as a country because other countries (rightly or wrongly) recognize the value of it being a country.

That's not the same as "US citizens have a right to exist", which they do, or "Israelis have a right to exist", which they do, or "Palestinians have a right to exist" (which they do, while the Israeli government tries to deny it through "there is no such thing as Palestine" propaganda -- depersonifying Palestinians by framing them solely as a collective representation of a government, and then erasing even that existence).

I'll have to reread the post to make sure I'm not missing anything... you seem to be reading things into it that I didn't see, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

I apologize in advance if I end up being Dead Wrong about this one. :-/

Them:

"I would agree that the US has no "right" to exist either. It exists as a country because other countries (rightly or wrongly) recognize the value of it being a country."

You're saying this as a hypothetical because no one is going to actually Land Back the US, ever. Because it's powerful. Even if every other country would unrecognise the US, nothing would happen. So it's comfy for you to agree, in the hypothetical.

Are you really asking for the annihilation of Israel? For a Hamas government for all of Palestine? For every Israeli, for every Jewish person in that area to be killed or deported? Where do you want to deport those people to, whose lives you so graciously acknowledge to have value as single lives? Ah, maybe they can be deported into concentration camps in South America, next to those of Trump! Yeah, splendid!

That's the righteous way for sure.

Me:

Okay, that's a definition of "existing" that is worth considering. I hadn't thought of it that way.

That said, I've often wished that some other country would "land back" the US, because our system kinda sucks. ...but of course it would probably be a lot worse than I imagine, if any other country actually had the ability to do that.

That said -- I still don't think any country has a right to "exist", in the sense of being recognized by the world -- unless any group can declare themselves a country and be recognized as such, which is something I might support. Why does Israel get to be a country, when it was plonked down in the middle of Palestine (i.e. the not-a-country known as Palestine was colonized) less than a century ago, and Palestine does not?

[continued as additional post]

(realized there are more points I needed to respond to)

Are you really asking for the annihilation of Israel?

I'm not asking for anything; I'm saying "why does Israel exist, and is it serving that end?" It's supposed to be a safe homeland for Jews (good idea), but many Jews are now horrified by the things it is doing (as many USians are horrified by what the US has been doing for decades, let alone now).

...and what do you mean by "annihilation"? That sounds like dropping a bomb -- killing people and destroying habitats and infrastructure, which I specifically said earlier is the opposite of what's being suggested by questioning the idea of a country's "right to exist".

For a Hamas government for all of Palestine?

Who said anything about Hamas? If there were going to be a revocation/dissolving of Israel's current government, I would hope the process would be truly democratic, reflecting the consensus preferences of all residents.

For every Israeli, for every Jewish person in that area to be killed or deported?

Again, this is the opposite of the point being made, or at least the point I'm making and what I thought the OP was saying. States -- power structures -- do not have a right to exist; people do. The people should be able to dissolve an existing structure if they feel it no longer serves them (see, for example, the US Declaration of Independence) and create a new one that serves it better.

Israel's government -- or the US government -- does not have any "right to exist" that should supersede the will of its people.

Maybe the problem here is that when I say "Israel", you hear "Israel's people", while I mean something more like "Israel's government and borders"?

Them:

Well, what is it? "Israel was plonked down there and hence shouldn't be there" or "only Netanyahu should go"?

You did agree with the first. And just because you don't actively want anyone killed, wiping out the country of Israel WOULD do that.

Who is talking about Hamas? IDK. The Hamas are. The Hamas is at the core of the Free Palestine shit movement. And many non-Israeli Palestines are scared shitless both by Israeli bombs AND the prospect of a united Palestine under Hamas.

Which IS what those people you're endorsing want. That's the alternative to "zionism". And they are promising "death to all Jews" and that's what's going to happen in that area if the antizionist dream gets realised.

I know you don't want THAT. But you need to be aware that's what this is about. Now. Or later, and be extremely sorry and shocked about it. I mean, it doesn't even matter because nothing we do here will change that.

The least we can do is not pour oil on it by spreading the propaganda.

Me:

I retract my statements regarding Israel's history. I will have to re-research it to refresh my memory.

wiping out the country of Israel WOULD do that.

"wiping out" -- again, what do you mean? The consequence you're describing sounds like someone deleting things from Israel like it was a Sims game -- "Yay, no more Israeli military, let's see what happens next!" -- where I'm just saying that the existing country and its power-structures do not have a right to continued international support or recognition.

The citizens do. All vulnerable people everywhere do. (...in my view.)

Countries effectively come into existence because they are recognized by other countries and diplomatic relations are established. That process can be reversed.

...and just because Hamas is taking front and center in pro-Palestinian terrorism, and presumably has the support of many (possibly even a majority) of Palestinians, does not mean that the leaders of Hamas are who the Palestinian people would choose as their representatives in a free and honest election.

Them:

That is not what those Nazis you reblogged are saying.

Look, you DON'T need to become an expert in this. I am not trying to become one, either. To what goal?

Just. Don't propagate propaganda if you don't really know a lot, you know. That's it. Don't jump in the frey for hate groups because you *assume* those nice shouty guys must mean as well as you do.

I refuse to click on any detailed news from Gaza, from both sides. Because yeah, there are still Israeli hostages that might be alive and the Hamas definitely killed and tortured hostages, but I don't want to hear about that EITHER.

Because these news are also meant to make me FEEL and not think anymore, and to go "team Israel, team Bibi!" which I REFUSE.

No one is forcing us to amplify propaganda. We can simply choose not to.

(There was more to the discussion, but I need to track it down.)