Talk:Separation of church and state

Why should an atheist feel excluded...

Why should an atheist feel excluded, or even threatened, when God is mentioned? When someone mentions the Roman deity Jupiter, or even prays to him, I don't feel excluded or threatened, I just don't feel included, but that's by personal choice. If they were trying to coerce or force me to pray with them, only then would I have an issue, otherwise it is simply and only about freedom of speech and the free exercise of religion, no matter what job, position or even political office they hold.

I am amazed that so many feel threated by something they profess they don't even believe in, when it should stand as a reminder how much more reason-based they are. I don't get upset by the mention of aliens in spaceships visiting earth and abducting people, but when someone mentions a belief in such things it makes me thank God that I have the intelligence to know better. Midian 12:24, 6 October 2006 (EDT)

Woozle responds

This seems a reasonable point to make. Here's what I think happens: in the presence of people practicing religion (a gathering for prayer, for example), an atheist (or agnostic, to a lesser extent) has a choice:

• join in, and thus say (or sing) things in which s/he doesn't really believe
• not join in, and thus seem to be rude or "above all that" ("Thank [goodness] I have the intelligence to know better!")

I've been in this position myself on a number of occasions.

One particular example was when I was in 3rd grade in England (we lived there for a year), where there is prayer in public schools (only they're called "government schools", and what they call "public schools" are what we call "private schools", but never mind), I felt very awkward at meals when the entire class was told to pray in unison before we could start eating. It seemed quite possible that I might get in trouble if I didn't mouth the words along with everybody else, but I didn't agree with the words and I certainly didn't mean them. But as you say, my only real problem with it was the implied coercion. (And in 1973, they did use mild physical punishment in English public schools.)

If school prayer is to be allowed on that level, I think it would need to be made very clear to kids that it was entirely voluntary, and schools would need to be vigilant for signs of intolerance of those who didn't go along with the majority. I also think we need to check the historical record on such things, as I vaguely recall that the religion-based majority has often been guilty of intimidation or even violence against nonbelievers and believers in other faiths. However, things have changed a lot, most people are far less isolated than even 20 years ago (much less 50 or 100), and maybe it's no longer the problem it once was.

It is, in fact, somewhat threatening when people all around you – reasonable-seeming people whom you might like, even – apparently believe in things that make no sense to you. It makes you question your own sanity ("Am I better because I prefer reason? Or am I missing something?"), it makes for awkwardness between you and them (especially if they've been taught that non-Ourfaithists are godless heathen, as some sects – even of Christianity – do), it makes it harder to feel part of the same community. You wonder if they think less of you (or hate you) because you don't believe as they do. --Woozle 12:19, 7 October 2006 (EDT)