User:Woozle/debate/2017/08/06/Flat Earth/complete

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d “Romans 2:28-29” w
Atheist vs. Theist
Aug 6, 2017
Proof that there is a God.
Originally shared by d “Romans 2:28-29” w
Please watch and fully comprehend the implication of flat water.

Analyzed: How Boats Vanish Over The Horizon
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Woozle Hypertwin+1 Boats vanish over the horizon because of the earth's curvature.

Did I miss anything? 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin you might watch before commenting, that is exactly what the video demonstrated. 9w

Woozle Hypertwin Okay. What does this have to do with God? 9w

Lorien obviously your video is some sort of flat earth "proof" right?

OK, assuming for a second the earth is flat. How would that prove god? The two things are unrelated. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Lorien the Bible is a flat Earth book. Additionally, that means that the globe is a hoax. Flat Earth disproves the Big Bang and all modern astrophysics. Most importantly, Flat Earth requires a creator. The fact that Earth requires a creator, proves there is a God. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin you can't have a flat Earth without a creator. The creator of Earth is our God. 9w

Lorien +d w Incorrect. While the christian bible may be read to say there is a flat earth...other religions also have flat models. Does that make all of them right too?

It's also possible there would be a natural flat earth origin theory.

At best flat would show some creator but it is no more likely to be your god than someone else's god story. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Lorien the Bible talks about a firmament above also, if you want to investigate deeper I would support you, but I'm just giving you the answer. This is forum is for people seeking the truth, right? 9w

Lorien +d w chuckles so you are in agreement then flat could just as easily mean the Sioux Indian's creation beliefs are real and that those are the real gods. Ok 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Lorien​ I am agreeing with your premise for the sake of argument. However, this is only one piece of the puzzle. Once you understand that the Earth is flat, it changes the direction of research and implies a necessity of a creator.

Texts from creators of a flat Earth greatly reduces the number of possible solutions. God of the Bible is the most likely and most supported. 9w

Woozle Hypertwin+1 +d w Well, as I said: ships disappear over the horizon because the earth is spherical, not flat.

It's beyond absurd, especially in this day and age, to claim that the earth is flat. It's insane. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin​ how is a demonstratable and repeatable observation insane?

Insane is ignoring a repeatable demonstration that you just observed. 9w

Lorien+1 +d w Specifically WHY do you think the god of the bible the most likely and supported? And do you mean the Jewish god or the NT gods since they are clearly different? 9w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w It has been repeatedly demonstrated that the earth is round, from multiple perspectives and experiments done over the past 2000 years. Every piece of evidence confirms it.

To deny this evidence is either insane or possibly profound ignorance -- but now that I have told you of its existence, you are no longer sufficiently ignorant to unquestioningly accept a flat earth. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Lorien​ the Bible is the longest-standing and most popular religious text in the world. The most important figure in the Bible has a historically verified death of crucifixion, just as the Bible says. The Bible is a flat Earth book.

The Old Testament and the New Testament have the same God under different Covenants.

Jews are people that obey the Commandments of God, and Christ is God in flesh. When Christ died on the cross, He sealed a New Covenant. The Hebrews thought that by Blood they were Jews, but you cannot be a Jew by Blood, only by faith. You can be a Hebrew by blood, but being Hebrew is of no Advantage if you are not a Jew. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin the piece of evidence presented is a verifiable and repeatable demonstration that proves that water is flat. I don't know how you missed that. Flat Water, Flat Earth. 9w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w What was the argument?

...and just to be clear, ships disappearing over the horizon is just one of thousands of pieces of evidence for sphericality. Where are the arguments refuting the rest? 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin​ I think you missed the point, ships don't disappear over a curve, they disappear into the horizon. Disproving the curve theory. Earth has no curvature and this is demonstrated in a repeatable and verifiable format.

Enter science and exit sci-fi. 9w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w What do you mean by "into the horizon"? There is no such thing. 9w

Lorien +d w there are so many errors in your last reply to me there really isn't any way to continue except to laugh. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin if you watch the video, you can see what "into horizon" means. It is a verifiable and repeatable demonstration. That's called science. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Lorien if you think that, then keep laughing. You are ignoring science and it will be to your loss, not mine. 9w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w You'll need to explain it to me, because I find the video incomprehensible after about the first 10 seconds. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin it's only 10 minutes, if you try, I'm sure you can make it through the whole thing. 9w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w Don't I need to understand the first 30 seconds in order to understand the rest? ...because I don't. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin if you are confused by any of this video, don't you have problems that are indicative of poor education? Besides, the video explains itself along the way. Try watching the full 10 minutes. 9w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w My education tells me that the video is trying to confuse the ignorant with bafflegab.

If you can't explain the argument to me in plain English, I have to wonder if you actually understand it yourself. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin the video demonstrates the boats are not going over a curve, that they are disappearing into a horizon that has no curvature. How much education do you need to understand that? 9w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w I'd need negative education. A horizon isn't something one can go into. It's a one-dimensional object with no thickness; that's basic geometry.

This video is negative education; you come out understanding less about the world than before you watched it. (Kind of like Fox News.) 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin​ the Horizon changes based on Optics and elevation. Your education level will Elevate once you understand that.

The video demonstrates you're incorrect understanding of the horizon. Again, you are experiencing cognitive dissonance that results in denial. 9w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w Yes, it changes -- so, go ahead, explain to me how this proves that something can vanish into it.

You don't seem to understand what "cognitive dissonance" means, either; it describes a contradiction between two possible beliefs that both seem plausible.

The flat earth theory is beyond implausible; it is laughable. It isn't worth serious consideration except as a relic of the past. If you want to embarrass me, you can tell my friends that I spent time arguing with a flat-earther. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin​​ The Horizon is a result of Optics and elevation. Changing the Optics and elevation allows something that appears to be behind the Horizon to become visible again. That is how something can appear to be in the horizon.

I'm sure you're an embarrassment to yourself regularly anyway, but feel free to show them this conversation if you want to embarrass yourself further. 9w

john vico +d w yes, at different heights you'll be able to see further. If you zoom in on an object moving away from you in the ocean that object will disappear as well. I cannot go on a mountain top in Los Angeles with a telescope and see Hawaii or Denver. I should of the earth is flat. The Bible stating the earth is flat only shows the knowledge those men had of their surroundings. They didn't know about Australia, China, Philippines, Iceland, North or South America. Does that mean those places really don't exist? 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +john vico kid, the size of the optical lens is what changes the horizon, not the zoom. Don't you know anything? 9w

john vico +d w it doesn't matter what lens you use. The object will disappear. With that logic you should be able to use the largest optical lens and see Hawaii from the California coast. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +john vico but sir, haven't you ever seen a telescope before? Have you noticed that the ones with bigger lenses can see more? Maybe you haven't because you haven't actually done any research so who knows, maybe you're seriously that stupid. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +john vico visibility is limited by more than just the Optics, light and atmospheric conditions also play a role. But you already knew that right? 9w

john vico +d w of course, let's just say that it's a beautiful clear day, no rain, no fog between L.A. and Hawaii. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +john vico you still have to deal with elevation. Elevation creates limits. It's based on the behavior of light over land. Using a DSLR I have taken a picture of land that was at least 1,100 miles away. 9w

john vico +d w in the video, the ship disappearing bottom first is evidence for curvature. And at what height were you when you photo land from 1100 miles away? If on a mountain top it's possible, that also is evidence for curvature. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +john vico I was just above sea level, not more than 50 feet. 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +john vico you should watch the video until your brain comprehends what you're watching, because obviously you are misunderstanding it. 9w

john vico +d w I watched it. The only one misrepresenting the data is the obviously uneducated woman in the video. She has no knowledge of what she is saying and describing. The Greeks figured this out over 2000 years ago. Predating Jesus, Christianity and the Bible 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +john vico really, she has no idea what she is talking about? 2,000 year old bronze age men knew more than people today? You don't say! That proves that her analysis which is clearly in conflict with curvature of water MUST be wrong!

But wait...doesn't science test and investigate stuff like this video? Do you have any reason to say that the analysis is wrong other than your belief that she is wrong? (Besides bronze age men)

What error did you find in the analysis? 9w

john vico +d w the errors about the ship vanishing bottom first over the horizon, she calls the water line. If the ship was just vanishing out of view, you should be able to see the whole ship getting smaller, like watching an approaching car 9w

Woozle Hypertwin If the earth is flat, how is it that I can talk to people all over the earth and for some of them, it's night time while it's day here? 9w

Addicted to Not Smoking +d w​​​ Modus ponens is proper logic of the form:

If A is true, then B is true. A is true. Therefore, B is true.

You have committed a logical fallacy that I cannot even name:

If (A) ships disappear over the horizon, then (B) the surface on which it sailed is curved. In other words, if A is true, then B is true. A is true. Therefore, B is... false?

WTF? I've seen a lot of logical fallacies, but none of them are as stupid as this one! 9w

handbone wade north TO ATHEISTS, THEISTS, DEISTS, FENCE SITTERS AND THOSE WHO KNOW NOT OR REJECT JESUS CHRIST, LORD AND SAVIOR: HE IS COMING...

Here is where unbelief will take us:

Psalm 33: 10 The Lord bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.

Here is where God blessed us to go:

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.". Psalm 33:12

GOD First blessed mankind and then Israel as a people and nation, then the faithful Church of Jews and Gentiles . Their historical Biblical evidences did influence America's founding and national upbringing which gave birth to our NATION: the people of the USA affirming this truth in most critical ways as hereafter set forth and evidenced in the RISE of America as the greatest mixed peoples Nation in world history in freedoms and liberty, in justice (Fashioned by the 10 Commandments of GOD) and worship of Jesus Christ as God the Son and Savior of the world!

AMERICA THE GREATEST WITNESS IN WORLD HISTORY !!!

What "GOD" is on the USA money? "IN GOD WE TRUST". What is His name?

What "GOD" is in the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America."One Nation under GOD"?

What "GOD"? "And this be our motto: In God is our trust." verse 4 of our National Anthem:The Star Spangled Banner!

MORE BIBLES DISTRIBUTED WORLDWIDE FROM AMERICA AND MORE EVANGELISM THEN ANY NATION, EVER, ON EARTH!

AND GOD BLESSED AMERICA AS WE HUMBLY PRAYED "GOD BLESS AMERICA. LAND THAT I LOVE"

TO THE LOST IN AMERICA . May this same GOD who is revealed in His word in the Bible as well as creation that meets the eye, bless you to KNOW Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior; be freed from the bondage of sins, separation from GOD, and influence of those that contend Jesus Christ is not God the Son and Savior of a believing sinner. . JESUS CHRIST IS CALLING . " I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:32. . "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Mark 8:36. . The GOSPEL in a Nutshell. . " Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: and that he was seen of Peter, then of the Twelve....." 1 Cor.15:3-5 . We are all natural born sinners. No exceptions. . The sin nature is inherited though our parents. It began in Adam who first sinned. That sin caused his spiritual separation from God. He was alienated from God. We are born this way as well. . Each of us is equipped by God with a conscience that instinctively knows right from wrong. But every one of us is spiritually dead (our sin nature) and cut off from God. Thus no one seeks God unless called by God. The call of God is in the truth of His word and only belief in Jesus Christ through His Gospel can save a sinner from this state of spiritual death and it's result which is a conscious separation from God forever. . King David was well aware of the inheritance we all have of a sin nature, saying: . "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me” Psalm 51:5. . Saint Paul testifies: . "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23 . Every sin ever committed by every person of age must be accounted for. . CHRIST CAME TO DIE FOR EVERYONE'S SINS. THAT IS GOD LOVE! . " But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 . GOD THE SON TOOK OUR JUDGMENT AND BY HIM WE ARE "NOT GUILTY". ARE YOU CALLED? WILL YOU SAY "YES LORD, I BELIEVE". . SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT OF GOD Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." . " All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." John 6:37 . "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" John 14:6. . GOD IS CALLING US: GOD IS CALLING YOU . God is warning the world. Perilous times are here! Great wars loom on the near horizon. Don't be deceived; you need the "Rock" to stand on and Jesus Christ is your stand. . For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places (Matthew 24:7). . " Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: and that he was seen of Peter, then of the Twelve....." 1 Cor.15:3-5 . God saves those who acknowledge their sins and repent (a change of mind about sin and commission of sin, a Holy God who gave us life and Holy commands, and salvation through Jesus Christ who is the only begotten Son of God and Lord and Savior) . "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10


 9w

Freedom Ofspeech YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!

TO ATHEISTS, THEISTS, DEISTS, FENCE SITTERS AND THOSE WHO KNOW NOT OR REJECT JESUS CHRIST, LORD AND SAVIOR: HE IS COMING...

Here is where unbelief will take us:

Psalm 33: 10 The Lord bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.

Here is where God blessed us to go:

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.". Psalm 33:12

GOD First blessed mankind and then Israel as a people and nation, then the faithful Church of Jews and Gentiles . Their historical Biblical evidences did influence America's founding and national upbringing which gave birth to our NATION: the people of the USA affirming this truth in most critical ways as hereafter set forth and evidenced in the RISE of America as the greatest mixed peoples Nation in world history in freedoms and liberty, in justice (Fashioned by the 10 Commandments of GOD) and worship of Jesus Christ as God the Son and Savior of the world!

AMERICA THE GREATEST WITNESS IN WORLD HISTORY !!!

What "GOD" is on the USA money? "IN GOD WE TRUST". What is His name?

What "GOD" is in the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America."One Nation under GOD"?

What "GOD"? "And this be our motto: In God is our trust." verse 4 of our National Anthem:The Star Spangled Banner!

MORE BIBLES DISTRIBUTED WORLDWIDE FROM AMERICA AND MORE EVANGELISM THEN ANY NATION, EVER, ON EARTH!

AND GOD BLESSED AMERICA AS WE HUMBLY PRAYED "GOD BLESS AMERICA. LAND THAT I LOVE"

TO THE LOST IN AMERICA . May this same GOD who is revealed in His word in the Bible as well as creation that meets the eye, bless you to KNOW Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior; be freed from the bondage of sins, separation from GOD, and influence of those that contend Jesus Christ is not God the Son and Savior of a believing sinner. . JESUS CHRIST IS CALLING . " I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:32. . "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Mark 8:36. . The GOSPEL in a Nutshell. . " Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: and that he was seen of Peter, then of the Twelve....." 1 Cor.15:3-5 . We are all natural born sinners. No exceptions. . The sin nature is inherited though our parents. It began in Adam who first sinned. That sin caused his spiritual separation from God. He was alienated from God. We are born this way as well. . Each of us is equipped by God with a conscience that instinctively knows right from wrong. But every one of us is spiritually dead (our sin nature) and cut off from God. Thus no one seeks God unless called by God. The call of God is in the truth of His word and only belief in Jesus Christ through His Gospel can save a sinner from this state of spiritual death and it's result which is a conscious separation from God forever. . King David was well aware of the inheritance we all have of a sin nature, saying: . "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me” Psalm 51:5. . Saint Paul testifies: . "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23 . Every sin ever committed by every person of age must be accounted for. . CHRIST CAME TO DIE FOR EVERYONE'S SINS. THAT IS GOD LOVE! . " But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 . GOD THE SON TOOK OUR JUDGMENT AND BY HIM WE ARE "NOT GUILTY". ARE YOU CALLED? WILL YOU SAY "YES LORD, I BELIEVE". . SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT OF GOD Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." . " All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." John 6:37 . "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" John 14:6. . GOD IS CALLING US: GOD IS CALLING YOU . God is warning the world. Perilous times are here! Great wars loom on the near horizon. Don't be deceived; you need the "Rock" to stand on and Jesus Christ is your stand. . For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places (Matthew 24:7). . " Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: and that he was seen of Peter, then of the Twelve....." 1 Cor.15:3-5 . God saves those who acknowledge their sins and repent (a change of mind about sin and commission of sin, a Holy God who gave us life and Holy commands, and salvation through Jesus Christ who is the only begotten Son of God and Lord and Savior) . "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10


CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW

boys........keep your DEVILRY off Christian posts!!! 9w

john vico+1 +Freedom Ofspeech what god are you referring to? The Christian god that was copied from the Canaanites god EL? Or Ahura Mazda, Odin, Thor, Horus, or the other 3 million plus gods? The other 5 plus billion people who believe in a different god are obviously wrong and only your version is correct? 9w

Addicted to Not Smoking +handbone wade north​​​​​ Where do I even begin?

"GOD First blessed mankind and then Israel as a people and nation, then the faithful Church of Jews and Gentiles . Their historical Biblical evidences did influence America's founding and national upbringing which gave birth to our NATION: the people of the USA affirming this truth in most critical ways as hereafter set forth and evidenced in the RISE of America as the greatest mixed peoples Nation in world history in freedoms and liberty, in justice (Fashioned by the 10 Commandments of GOD) and worship of Jesus Christ as God the Son and Savior of the world!"

On the contrary, our Founding Fathers wanted secular government, with religion being optional. And only the sixth thru ninth commandments have any resemblance to American law. The first four commandments are just four different ways of saying "worship God." The fifth commandment blindly assumes that your parents are honorable people, which may or may not be true. The tenth commandment basically says that you must repress your human nature at all costs.

"AMERICA THE GREATEST WITNESS IN WORLD HISTORY !!!"

Ask other countries which country is the biggest threat to world security. The majority of countries will say that America is the most threatening. And they are right.

"What 'GOD' is on the USA money? "IN GOD WE TRUST". What is His name?"

USA currency used to have "E pluribus unum" printed on it. It changed to "In God we trust" on July 30, 1956.

"What 'GOD' is in the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. 'One Nation under GOD'?"

The original Pledge of Allegiance ended with phrase, "one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." The words "under God" were inserted in 1954.

"What 'GOD'? 'And this be our motto: In God is our trust.' verse 4 of our National Anthem:The Star Spangled Banner!"

Proving nothing. The Ancient Greeks probably had several songs thanking Zeus for the good fortunes of Greece. Like the Star Spangled Banner, such songs prove nothing about the existence of any gods.

"MORE BIBLES DISTRIBUTED WORLDWIDE FROM AMERICA AND MORE EVANGELISM THEN ANY NATION, EVER, ON EARTH!"

That doesn't prove that evangelism is right. It only proves that evangelism is obsessive.

"We are all natural born sinners. No exceptions. / The sin nature is inherited though our parents. It began in Adam who first sinned. That sin caused his spiritual separation from God. He was alienated from God. We are born this way as well."

In other words, "how dare you sin by choosing to have parents who sinned before you were born?" Seriously, that's not remotely how choice works.

'Each of us is equipped by God with a conscience that instinctively knows right from wrong. But every one of us is spiritually dead (our sin nature) and cut off from God. Thus no one seeks God unless called by God. The call of God is in the truth of His word and only belief in Jesus Christ through His Gospel can save a sinner from this state of spiritual death and it's result which is a conscious separation from God forever."

You DEFINITELY have no understanding of how choice works. It isn't hereditary. If it were, it wouldn't be choice.

"Every sin ever committed by every person of age must be accounted for."

That statement would make a lot more sense if you hadn't carelessly contradicted yourself shortly afterwards.

"Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."

And, there it is. You just contradicted what you said earlier about accountability. Apparently, Christians can do whatever they want, and be exempt from accountability.

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6."

Jesus sounds like he's desperately trying to convince himself more than anybody else of his own godhood.

"God is warning the world. Perilous times are here! Great wars loom on the near horizon."

Wars have been waged since forever. Anybody with half a brain could have used pattern recognition to predict more wars to come.

"Don't be deceived; you need the 'Rock' to stand on and Jesus Christ is your stand."

Lots of people have relied on Jesus to bail them out of their problems. This has a success rate of zero percent.

"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places (Matthew 24:7)."

Again, consistent patterns in the past that even an idiot can accurately expect to continue in the future. Since when does Captain Obvious require divine inspiration? 9w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb1tMCm_hVo 9w

Woozle Hypertwin I'm curious how the flat-earthers here are going to explain away the upcoming eclipse: en.wikipedia.org - Solar eclipse of August 21, 2017 - Wikipedia

Solar eclipse of August 21, 2017 - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org 7w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin explain it away? How does the globe model explain the shadow going from west to east? Lol 7w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w I'll take this slowly...

What is casting the shadow? 7w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin the moon. 7w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w

Okay. Why is the moon casting a shadow on Earth that day, when it doesn't normally? 7w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtHuTVXZGFw 7w

Woozle Hypertwin /me waits patiently... 7w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin you have to click the link. 7w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w What link? The YouTube video you posted earlier and then deleted? youtube.com - Flat Earth - Eclipse explained

Flat Earth - Eclipse explained 7w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin deleted? It is still there. Are you confused about why I posted the link? Did you not understand the video? 7w

Woozle Hypertwin+1 +d w The link appeared briefly after my "Okay. Why is the moon..." comment, and then disappeared. It's still not there, even in Private mode.

I'll chalk it up to a Google glitch.

So, you're saying that the link I posted above is the one you intended to post? 7w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin Yessir, that's the link. 7w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w There's no narration, and the labels are rather fuzzy, so we're left to make some assumptions about what the video is proposing.

Here's what I think I understand:

1. The sun and the moon are both on the order of hundreds of miles across, at a maximum. 2. They are approximately the same size, with the moon being slightly larger (at least, during total eclipses). 3. Each one orbits around its own central point (one per body). 4. Each central point itself moves in a circle around the Earth, directly above the Earth's equator at some unspecified height. 5. The two central points involved each have a slightly different circling period -- that is, one moves just slightly faster than the other. 6. Because of these mechanics, the moon is only occasionally directly in front of the sun in such a way as to cause an eclipse.

Am I understanding correctly? 7w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin +d w There's no narration, and the labels are rather fuzzy, so we're left to make some assumptions about what the video is proposing.

Here's what I think I understand:

1. The sun and the moon are both on the order of hundreds of miles across, at a maximum.

The size is debatable, but it depends on who you talk to.

2. They are approximately the same size, with the moon being slightly larger (at least, during total eclipses).

They are the same size.

3. Each one orbits around its own central point (one per body).

Not in a perfect circle, but yes.

4. Each central point itself moves in a circle around the Earth,

Moves around the center.


directly above the Earth's equator at some unspecified height.

Not always above the equator.


5. The two central points involved each have a slightly different circling period -- that is, one moves just slightly faster than the other.

The sun is faster than the moon, yes.

6. Because of these mechanics, the moon is only occasionally directly in front of the sun in such a way as to cause an eclipse.

Yes.

Am I understanding correctly?

Mostly. 7w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w

  1. 1. Given the diagram, there are substantial optical limitations to how large (and far away) they could be and still get the results we observe.
  1. 2. If they're the same size, then how do we get total eclipses? Totality would be zero seconds long (or less, due to the irregularity of the moon's surface -- it's not a perfect circle). By the same token, how do we get annular eclipses?

Overall, your model breaks the scientific explanation for eclipses (and orbital mechanics in general) in a number of ways (most obviously: moon orbits earth, earth orbits sun, sun much much bigger than moon + earth). In order to begin reconstructing our view of the universe in accordance with your model, I think we'd need to start by answering at least the following questions:

7. What causes the sun and moon to orbit around their respective central points? 8. What causes the central points to circle around the Earth's equator? 9. What causes the moon to shine? 10. What causes the sun to shine? 7w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin +d w

  1. 1. Given the diagram, there are substantial optical limitations to how large (and far away) they could be and still get the results we observe.

No, only if you assume they are at the exact same elevation, which they are not most likely. Likely, the moon is closer during eclipse. Perspective explains the rest.

  1. 2. If they're the same size, then how do we get total eclipses?

Same size, not the same distance.

Totality would be zero seconds long (or less, due to the irregularity of the moon's surface -- it's not a perfect circle). By the same token, how do we get annular eclipses?

The moons distance from the sun during the eclipse path determines the type.

Overall, your model breaks the scientific explanation for eclipses

Overall, the model isn't my model.

(and orbital mechanics in general)

I understand this. Earth isn't in orbit.

in a number of ways (most obviously: moon orbits earth, earth orbits sun, sun much much bigger than moon + earth).

I agree.

In order to begin reconstructing our view of the universe in accordance with your model,

It isn't my model, it is the original and oldest model. More people in human history have believed this model than the heliocentric model.

I think we'd need to start by answering at least the following questions:

7. What causes the sun and moon to orbit around their respective central points?

God's design, using electromagnetic means.

8. What causes the central points to circle around the Earth's equator?

This question appears to misunderstand the model.

9. What causes the moon to shine?

God made it as a light. Light is energy in a certain frequency, but the light of the moon is cold.

10. What causes the sun to shine?

God made it as a light. Same as above, but light of the sun is hot. 7w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w

1. Okay...

1a. Why are the sun and the moon at different elevations above the Earth's surface?

1b. Why are the sun and moon floating above the Earths's surface at all? Why don't they just fall down?

  1. 2 "The moon's distance from the sun during the eclipse path determines the type." Okay. That actually matches what the science says, more or less.

"Overall, the model isn't my model." -- it's the model you're advocating as a replacement for the scientific one (heliocentrism plus later discoveries). It's "your" model in that you believe it's a better explanation than heliocentrism.

"it is the original and oldest model. More people in human history have believed this model than the heliocentric model."

It is the original and oldest, yes -- by thousands of years. (This is not, however, an argument in its favor.)

I doubt very much that more people believed it than believe the heliocentric model (many more people are alive now than were alive when heliocentrism was believed) -- but even if so, popularity is not evidence of truth, especially when belief in a particular idea can be ascribed to lack of important information.

  1. 7

Q. What causes the sun and moon to orbit around their respective central points? A. God's design, using electromagnetic means. Q. What electromagnetic means does God use to cause the sun and moon to orbit around their respective central points?

(Heliocentrism: God uses gravity to cause each pair of celestial bodies to orbit around their common center of gravity, in accordance with God's laws of physics.)

  1. 8

Q: What causes the central points to circle around the Earth's equator? A: This question appears to misunderstand the model. Q: What would be a more accurate description of what is happening with regards to the central points around which sun and moon are each orbiting?

  1. 9.

Q: What causes the moon to shine? A: God made it as a light. Light is energy in a certain frequency, but the light of the moon is cold. Q: By what means does God cause the moon to shine?

(Heliocentrism: God causes the moon to shine by reflecting the rays of the sun.)

  1. 10.

Q: What causes the sun to shine? A: God made it as a light. Same as above, but light of the sun is hot. Q: By what means does God cause the sun to shine?

(Heliocentrism: God causes the sun to shine through atomic fusion, mostly of hydrogen into helium.)

-

Where I've included the heliocentric explanation in parenthesis, there is an implicit question: why is your explanation better? 7w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin +d w

1. Okay...

1a. Why are the sun and the moon at different elevations above the Earth's surface?

The firmament has depth.

1b. Why are the sun and moon floating above the Earths's surface at all? Why don't they just fall down?

They are in the firmament.

  1. 2 "The moon's distance from the sun during the eclipse path determines the type." Okay. That actually matches what the science says, more or less.

"Overall, the model isn't my model." -- it's the model you're advocating as a replacement for the scientific one (heliocentrism plus later discoveries). It's "your" model in that you believe it's a better explanation than heliocentrism.

"it is the original and oldest model. More people in human history have believed this model than the heliocentric model."

It is the original and oldest, yes -- by thousands of years. (This is not, however, an argument in its favor.)

I doubt very much that more people believed it than believe the heliocentric model (many more people are alive now than were alive when heliocentrism was believed) -- but even if so, popularity is not evidence of truth, especially when belief in a particular idea can be ascribed to lack of important information.

I agree that popularity is not evidence, but it is still a fact. Additionally, the people that created the megalithic structures of old were people under the flat geocentric model. That lends credibility to their beliefs.

  1. 7

Q. What causes the sun and moon to orbit around their respective central points? A. God's design, using electromagnetic means. Q. What electromagnetic means does God use to cause the sun and moon to orbit around their respective central points?

Electromagnetic flow within the firmament.

(Heliocentrism: God uses gravity to cause each pair of celestial bodies to orbit around their common center of gravity, in accordance with God's laws of physics.)

Nobody knows what gravity is.

  1. 8

Q: What causes the central points to circle around the Earth's equator? A: This question appears to misunderstand the model. Q: What would be a more accurate description of what is happening with regards to the central points around which sun and moon are each orbiting?

The orbit around the north pole.

  1. 9.

Q: What causes the moon to shine? A: God made it as a light. Light is energy in a certain frequency, but the light of the moon is cold. Q: By what means does God cause the moon to shine?

Not fusion, probably sound frequency from Him as the energy source.

(Heliocentrism: God causes the moon to shine by reflecting the rays of the sun.)

  1. 10.

Q: What causes the sun to shine? A: God made it as a light. Same as above, but light of the sun is hot. Q: By what means does God cause the sun to shine?

He is the source, again, probably sound waves that react with the material that the sun is made of.

(Heliocentrism: God causes the sun to shine through atomic fusion, mostly of hydrogen into helium.)

Where have you seen this confirmed experimentally?

-

Where I've included the heliocentric explanation in parenthesis, there is an implicit question: why is your explanation better?

If it is true, it is therefore better. 7w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w

1a.

Q. Why are the sun and the moon at different elevations above the Earth's surface? A. The firmament has depth. Q. How did they come to be at their current positions within the firmament?

1b.

Q. Why are the sun and moon floating above the Earths's surface at all? Why don't they just fall down? A. They are in the firmament. Q. What material is the firmament made of?

1c. How high off the ground is the firmament?

1d. How did the firmament get where it is?

1e. What causes things within a single firmament to move in different ways?

"Additionally, the people that created the megalithic structures of old were people under the flat geocentric model. That lends credibility to their beliefs."

I don't see how that follows.

7

Q. What causes the sun and moon to orbit around their respective central points? A. God's design, using electromagnetic means. Q. What electromagnetic means does God use to cause the sun and moon to orbit around their respective central points? A. Electromagnetic flow within the firmament. Q. Electromagnetic flow alone does not cause objects to move in circular paths; a mechanism is required. What is the mechanism?

"Nobody knows what gravity is." -- true, but (a) we have theories about it, and (b) we know how it behaves, to a very high degree of precision.

8

Q: What causes the central points to circle around the Earth's equator? A: This question appears to misunderstand the model. Q: What would be a more accurate description of what is happening with regards to the central points around which sun and moon are each orbiting? A: They orbit around the north pole. Q: If they orbit around the north pole, then they would sometimes go below ground level. Do you mean they orbit around a vertical line drawn through the north pole?

9

Q: What causes the moon to shine? A: God made it as a light. Light is energy in a certain frequency, but the light of the moon is cold. Q: By what means does God cause the moon to shine? A: Not fusion, probably sound frequency from Him as the energy source.

In other words, you have no idea what causes the moon to shine; you just reject the idea that it shines by reflected light, and feel satisfied by any explanation that ends with "God does it" and fits with your flat-earth model of the universe. You have no evidence to support your answer to this question.

10

Q: What causes the sun to shine? A: God made it as a light. Same as above, but light of the sun is hot. Q: By what means does God cause the sun to shine? A: He is the source, again, probably sound waves that react with the material that the sun is made of.

Again, you have no idea; your curiosity stops as soon as you can say "God does it".

"Where have you seen this confirmed experimentally?"

Fusion of hydrogen was discovered in the middle of the 20th century and has been demonstrated multiple times as a source of energy consistent with the measured parameters of the sun's output, in numerous ways.

11

Q: Where I've included the heliocentric explanation in parenthesis, there is an implicit question: why is your explanation better? A: If it is true, it is therefore better. Q: By "better", I mean "what is it about your explanation that makes it more likely to be true?" Your hypothesis about the nature of the cosmos strikes me as unnecessarily complex (aside from being in flat contradiction of vast amounts of evidence, which I have chosen to overlook for the sake of this discussion).

Explanations are best when they are:

  • simpler (fewer intermediate steps between known principles and the phenomenon in question)
  • more complete (does not create new questions for each one it answers)
  • more generalizable (applies to other phenomena, not just the one in question)

How is your explanation more likely to be true, despite being unnecessarily complex, specialized, and incomplete? 6w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin your questions are no longer about the model, they are questions about composition and God. If you are serious about wanting to understand, why not investigate? Since there's no end to the list of questions, it seems you are just testing me. Every question has another question, that is what science is about. Additionally, some of your questions imply that your false belief must be true. That is when I stop answering questions. 6w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w

My questions are about the principles underlying the model. Without understanding those principles, it is impossible to understand the thinking which arrived at the model -- and hence impossible to understand why it's a good model, much less to evaluate it relative to other models such as the one I currently favor.

If I can't evaluate it, I have no reason to believe it has any merit.

Yes, every answer results in another question -- but a good model will result in fewer questions than it poses.

Gravity is a good example of this. Newton's theory of universal gravity (and I'll note that Newton was a devout theist) answered many many questions about the behavior of objects on earth and in the heavens, while leaving only one new question ("what causes this law to work the way it does, rather than some other way?").

All that said...

If you cannot consider the mere possibility that another theory might be better than the one you currently favor (whatever that theory might be, on whatever subject), then you're not engaging in scientific investigation -- you're engaging in religion: unquestioning belief of what you're told, and seeing all evidence against that belief as an enemy to be defeated rather than as a possible path to a better understanding.

Just so we're clear on that. 6w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin​ well, let me clarify further. If you want answers to questions about composites and creation, you must seek the source.

The firmament is likely molten sapphire or something like it, though different in composition, but if you were as detailed in your questions about the globe theory, I wouldn't be answering these questions because you would already understood the flat earth conceptually when you discovered the globe was a hoax.

Where does the energy for gravity come from?

Why are NASA pictures drawings?

Why aren't there satellites around the moon?

Why doesn't the Hubble take photos of anything that proves the earth is a globe or that there were actually moon missions?

I bet you didn't ask any of those questions, but now you are Mr inquisitive? Yeah, no.

All that said...

If you cannot consider the mere possibility that another theory might be better than the one you currently favor (whatever that theory might be, on whatever subject), then you're not engaging in scientific investigation -- you're engaging in religion: unquestioning belief of what you're told, and seeing all evidence against that belief as an enemy to be defeated rather than as a possible path to a better understanding.

Just so we're clear on that. 6w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w

I'll call your questions to me the "B" series:

B1.

Q: Where does the energy for gravity come from?

A: Gravity does not require energy; it is effectively a form of energy storage, like a spring or a rubber band.

B2.

Q: Why are NASA pictures drawings?

A: Some are, some aren't. Sometimes a diagram is more informative than a photograph.

B3.

Q: Why aren't there satellites around the moon?

A: There have been numerous artificial satellites orbiting the moon. Are you asking why the moon has no natural satellites?

B4.

Q: Why doesn't the Hubble take photos of anything that proves the earth is a globe or that there were actually moon missions?

A: Hubble is a deep-space telescope, not intended to observe Earth or Luna; it's not needed for that. There are numerous other photographs showing the spherical shape of the earth, and more recently lunar orbiters of sufficiently high resolution have been able to photograph the site of at least one lunar landing. (I can look for more information about that if you'd like to see the photos.)

I'm glad that at least we are in agreement about the distinction between science and religion. 6w

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin​ your answers are excuses and non answers.

Saying that gravity doesn't require an energy source is like saying rubber bands and springs just magically appear.

Some NASA pictures aren't drawings? The CGI ones don't qualify as drawings I guess, my bad.

Why doesn't the moon have man made satellites.. was the intended understanding.

I know what the hubble is, but not using it for anything except deep space is a cop out when it could be used to verify claims but isn't. 6w

Woozle Hypertwin +d w

B1. "Saying that gravity doesn't require an energy source is like saying rubber bands and springs just magically appear."

The matter from which rubber bands are created presumably took energy at some point, but the energy consumed when a rubber band is released is equal to the energy consumed when it is stretched. No additional energy is required.

The same is true of gravity: the energy released when (for example) water falls down a given distance is equal to the amount of energy expended to raise the water from the lower level to the higher one.

So, no, your simile doesn't make sense.

B2. "Some NASA pictures aren't drawings? The CGI ones don't qualify as drawings I guess, my bad."

Many of them are photographs. In fact, the ones that look like photographs are almost always photographs, or "false color" representation of photographic data (which is just another form of photograph). I don't know where you got the idea that this is not the case.

B3. "Why doesn't the moon have man made satellites.. was the intended understanding."

It does, or at least has at various times. I'm not sure if any are in orbit at this exact moment. Here's a list: en.wikipedia.org - Category:Artificial satellites orbiting the Moon - Wikipedia

...but I don't understand how it would be an issue if there weren't any. Why would we expect there to be any?

B4. "I know what the hubble is, but not using it for anything except deep space is a cop out when it could be used to verify claims but isn't."

How is it a cop-out when it wasn't designed for Earth observation and there are numerous other spacecraft used for that exact purpose? And why are you ignoring them? Category:Artificial satellites orbiting the Moon - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org 17h

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin​ you can believe anything you want, I don't care about stupid people. Do you want to be stupid, stay stupid for all I care. That is your choice. Enjoy its fruits. 14h

Woozle Hypertwin +d w I see you haven't answered my questions. Is it that you don't know the answer?

I mean, calling someone "stupid" when you don't know something is pretty classic authoritarian. 5h

d “Romans 2:28-29” w +Woozle Hypertwin let me put it to you this way... you're not asking a question, you're pretending you are smart. Since you've wasted my time entirely with this conversation, and you don't even understand that springs and rubber bands don't pop-up out of an air, I'm going to play a different game with you. The game is called, either you make me think that you're actually smart, or I'll make you think that I'm rude. Can you tell from the title of the game that you're not going to like my response if I think you're being stupid? Figure out how the simile makes sense, or I'm erasing you from this thread. I understand you don't want it to make sense, but what you want isn't what this conversation is about. 1h

+d “Romans 2:28-29” w

_"you're not asking a question, you're pretending you are smart."_

I am asking questions that *need to be answered if your theory is going to hold any water.* By default, it does not. Everyone except you understands that the flat earth theory was overturned during the classical era. I'm being _extremely_ open-minded by even bothering to attempt dialogue with you, since I don't expect that you have any actual interest in understanding how the universe really works, and just want to push your "theory" on everyone because you somehow believe that it proves the existence of God (which it doesn't, even if true), which is also for some reason important to you.

_"you don't even understand that springs and rubber bands don't pop-up out of an air,"_

That is absolutely not what I said. I think you had better paraphrase my response back, to show that you understood it.

_"The game is called, either you make me think that you're actually smart, or I'll make you think that I'm rude."_

Let's say I'm an idiot. Why does that matter? Are smart people always more right than stupid people? (Hint: Albert Einstein once lost a math argument with a ticket collector, because he was wrong.)

_"Figure out how the simile makes sense, or I'm erasing you from this thread..."_

I have the thread archived, and will repost it with my comments intact if you do that -- and then everyone will know that you are terrified of honest inquiry.