Talk:George W. Bush

Debates

Have Bush's actions in the wake of 9/11 been justified?

Bush's actions in the wake of 9/11 have been justified.

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wikipage=Issuepedia:Debaticons tooltip=claim that is the main subject of a debate img_src=Image:Arrow-button-rt-20px.png img_alt=right arrow debaticon </linkedimage> 1 This is a war, and waging war requires some curtailment of freedom.

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wikipage=Issuepedia:Debaticons tooltip=claim that is the main subject of a debate img_src=Image:Arrow-button-rt-20px.png img_alt=right arrow debaticon </linkedimage> 1a We are at war.

1a-1 Can you call it a war when the enemy isn't a country or even an organized group?

1a-1.1 If it's not a war on some recognized geopolitical or cultural entity, do the usual caveats about "being at war" – specifically that freedoms must be curtailed – even apply?

1a-1.2 How do we know that Bush hasn't shaped his response to the situation specifically so that the label "war" could be applied, allowing him to make bad decisions and behave corruptly? Do we trust Bush to make "wartime" judgment calls without any accountability? See #Is Bush trustworthy? for further discussion.

1a-2 We shouldn't be at war.

1a-2.1 War is an inappropriate response to this situation.

1a.2.1.1 You don't attack the Mafia by invading Chicago, destroying its infrastructure, and getting all the locals ticked off at you. Similarly, you don't destroy terrorism with an army; it takes intelligence, in both senses of the word, and the Bush people have shown over and over again that what mental powers they do possess are mostly devoted to the intelligent design of sweetheart deals for their supporters – and consolidating their power through subterfuge, misdirection, and highly questionable legal theory. See #Is Bush trustworthy? for further discussion.

1a.2.1.1-1 The Islamofascists are a worse problem than the Mafia in a couple of ways.

1a.2.1.1-1.1 If you left the Mafia alone, they would leave you alone; the Islamofascists won't..

1a.2.1.1-1.1a The Mafia wasn't a problem when they were left alone.

1a.2.1.1-1.1a-1 The Mafia often demanded "protection money" of those who just happened to be within their turf, with dire consequences if the money was not paid.

1a.2.1.1-1.1b The islamofascists are a problem even when left alone.

1a.2.1.1-1.1b-1 Possibly true, though this one difference does not in itself justify revoking civil liberties.

1a.2.1.2 As I understand it all the terrorist plots that have been foiled recently were foiled using normal police methods – not by virtue of Bush's wiretapping, or by extracting confessions from tortured prisoners, much less any of the other reductions of freedom. If any of his actions had clearly played a part in the successful rounding-up of terrorists, I'm sure he would have been taking credit for it.

1a.2.1.1-1.2 The mafia don't blow up innocent people just to make a point.

1a.2.1.1-1.2 Possibly not, but they certainly did gun people down for that same reason.

1a-2 Granting the premise that terrorism is Enemy #1, we should be engaged in carefully-calculated strategic political, economic, and espionage activity to defeat this enemy. Going after them with hordes of military is like trying to swat a fly with a 20-pound sledgehammer. See asymmetric warfare for further information.

1a-3 We shouldn't be at war, and here's why:

1a-3.1 Congress did not grant Bush the authority to wage war on Iraq unless certain conditions were met; the conditions weren't met, but he did it anyway. (Query: Whose job is it to stop the president when he uses his power as commander-in-chief to do something which exceeds his official powers? I think it's supposed to be Congress, and they certainly didn't do it.)

1a-3.2 Calling it a "war" lends entirely the wrong mindset to the operation, and leaves the door open for excesses of the type we began seeing soon after the invasion was complete. See 1a-2 for a proper approach to fighting terrorism.

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wikipage=Issuepedia:Debaticons tooltip=claim that is the main subject of a debate img_src=Image:Arrow-button-rt-20px.png img_alt=right arrow debaticon </linkedimage> 1b Waging war requires some curtailment of freedom.

1b-1 The curtailments we are seeing in this war are severely mismatched to the situation.

1b-1.1 The types of curtailments we have encountered in real wars generally made some kind of sense (or at least seemed to, even if they ultimately were more psychological in nature than truly logistical): rationing gas and food, because of short supply; giving troops higher priority for usage of infrastructure (such as trains). The internment of Japanese-descended American citizens was a stain on our honor, and I would certainly argue against curtailments of that nature in this case. Query: Did we ever make it illegal to publish pro-German or even pro-Hitler literature? I don't think this happened; Americans were mainly urged not to discuss anything they might hear, from (say) relatives in the military, about troop movements or strategy.

1b-1.1.1 It seems to me that the only legitimate reason to curtail freedoms during wartime is to prevent the enemy from learning details of our military strategy.

1b-1.1.2 It seems to me that preventing the enemy from learning details of our military strategy and plans has not been an issue in the current situation:

• We don't know what Bush's strategy is; he doesn't seem to have one.
• There has been no evidence of Al Qaeda having a domestic spying program in the US, or of ever having made use of strategic information in their attacks.
• Oddly, Bush has never even made a point of asking people who have friends or family in the military (with whom they may be in very frequent contact via email and chat – an unprecedented situation in the history of warfare, I think) to be very careful what details they might circulate. If ever there was a freedom he could legitimately argue we should be curtailing, this would be it – and he is not.

1b-2 The Mafia situation was worse than this one, and yet there was no significant curtailment of freedom.

1b-2.1 Regardless of whether you call the situation now with the Islamic terrorists, the Mafia in America in the 1920s-30s was substantially worse – people were being attacked on American soil, by a well-funded enemy who looked like us and even (mostly) had US citizenship – so there was no quick-and-dirty way to profile them for detention, as we are now doing. City governments were being corrupted and infiltrated by Mafia operatives, people were being gunned down in broad daylight, businesses were being burned.

1b-2.2 And yet, as far as I know, there was no significant curtailment of freedom in the fight against these terrorists. (Significantly, they largely arose as a major threat because of a curtailment of freedom – Prohibition. On a related note, the rampant corruption of the US occupation of Iraq is having a similar effect over there.)

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wikipage=Issuepedia:Debaticons tooltip=claim that is the main subject of a debate img_src=Image:Arrow-button-rt-20px.png img_alt=right arrow debaticon </linkedimage> 2 Bush's abridgments of civil liberties thus far are at least within reason, whether or not you agree on the details.

i.e. it's difficult to judge if the current war justifies the curtailments thus far, so why not grant Bush the benefit of the doubt?

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wikipage=Issuepedia:Debaticons tooltip=claim that is the main subject of a debate img_src=Image:Arrow-button-rt-20px.png img_alt=right arrow debaticon </linkedimage> 2a We still have far more freedoms than European countries do, so we don't really have any cause for complaint.

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wikipage=Issuepedia:Debaticons tooltip=claim that is the main subject of a debate img_src=Image:Arrow-button-rt-20px.png img_alt=right arrow debaticon </linkedimage> 2b Some increase in surveillance powers at least seems reasonable.

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wikipage=Issuepedia:Debaticons tooltip=claim that is the main subject of a debate img_src=Image:Arrow-button-rt-20px.png img_alt=right arrow debaticon </linkedimage> 3 Nobody has been seriously harmed by these curtailments so far.

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wikipage=Issuepedia:Debaticons tooltip=claim that is the main subject of a debate img_src=Image:Arrow-button-rt-20px.png img_alt=right arrow debaticon </linkedimage> 3a The potential for abuse is there, but Bush would not intentionally abuse the power he has obtained.

Notes

#politics 2005-07-22

<TheWoozle> Would you consider "pro-big-business" to be a positive or negative side of Republicanism?
<TheWoozle> And is pro-big-businessness a Conservative trait too? I wouldn't necessarily *think* so, but maybe I'm confusing Conservative and Libertarian.