Anti-abortion/arguments

Overview

This page is for examination of arguments starting from an anti-abortion position.

Structured Debate

Slogans

Slogans -- such as those frequently seen on bumper-stickers, t-shirts, and billboards -- are essentially the re-packaging of a complex argument in a small number of words with a powerful emotional impact. Many of them fall apart when you actually specify the implied components, however. {{#tree:

• 1. "Life is a gift, not a choice." - countered
• 2. "Abortion stops a beating heart." - countered
  • 2.1 only if the embryo is old enough to have one (apparently happens sometime during weeks 3-5 of pregnancy)
    • 2.1.2 According to medical and scientific literature, the heart is in place and beating at 3 weeks after conception. Above claim corrected based on research in response to this counterclaim
  • 2.2 ...and so does capital punishment, slaughtering animals for food, hunting (for sport or food), and running over animals with a car (deliberately or not). Also, certain medical procedures require stopping the heart temporarily. In other words, the stopping of a heart per se is not morally significant; the context and results of that stoppage are what matters.
    • 2.2.1 An animal being killed for food and a living, breathing human being, who just has yet to leave the mother's uterus is a completely different thing. And capital punishment is used only on sick, disgusting, and violent murderers like John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, etc., who had their chance to not kill people, and blew it. What I don't understand is how you people can defend rapists and murderers on death row, but support the murder of innocent children.
      • 2.2.1.1 This is actually several points. The overall argument is discussed below in the #Basic claims section; the specific points it seems to be making are here:
        • 2.2.1.1.1 Killing an animal and killing a fetus are two completely different things.
          • 2.2.1.1.1.2 This doesn't counter the point that killing an animal "stops a beating heart" at least as much as does killing a fetus -- perhaps more so, since legally-aborted babies generally cannot survive outside the womb. It's a valid mainpoint, though, so I've added it under #Debate.
        • 2.2.1.1.2 An abortable fetus is a living, breathing human being.
          • 2.2.1.1.2.1 No, it isn't. Breathing doesn't start until birth.
          • 2.2.1.1.2.2 Who says a fetus is a human being?
        • 2.2.1.1.3 Capital punishment is only used on people who also killed other people.
          • 2.2.1.1.3.1 If capital punishment is acceptable, this means that society considers it okay to "stop a beating heart" under some circumstances. It therefore seems reasonable to think that there could be other circumstances where it is also acceptable.
        • 2.2.1.1.4 "How can you defend rapists and murderers on death row, but support the murder of innocent children" = "How can you support the murder of innocent children" = "Abortion is murdering an innocent child" = "abortion is murder" and "a fetus is a child"
          • 2.2.1.1.4.1 Abortion is murder.
          • 2.2.1.1.4.2 A fetus is a child.
            • 2.2.1.1.4.2.1 No, a fetus is a fetus. It becomes a child after it is born. Calling a fetus a child is an emotional tactic intended to press our instinctive child-protection buttons -- but we are doing future children no favors by requiring them to be born regardless of circumstances.
• 3. "Your mother chose life." - countered
  • 3.1 Just because my mother chose it doesn't mean that this was the morally correct/best choice. (Not everyone is happy with having been born, for example.)
  • 3.2 What if my mother also voted or campaigned for legal abortions? (Arguably, the legality of abortion should be decided entirely by potential and actual mothers...)
  • 3.3 What if my mother would have chosen not to risk becoming pregnant if abortion were illegal? In that case, the legality of abortion made it possible for me to be alive.
  • 3.4 How is this an argument against abortion? If it were illegal, I might grow up never being sure that "my mother chose life", because she had no choice. You can thank "choice" for the knowledge that your mother did choose.
  • 3.5 What about someone whose mother later committed suicide? (I know one example personally; did her mother "choose life"?)
  • 3.6 My mother chose life because she had a choice!
    • This is a shorter, more catchy restatement of 3.3 -- suitable for use as a rebuttal bumper-sticker.
• 4. "Abortion: the worst kind of child abuse." - countered
  • 4.1 Killing an entity with no nerves, much less consciousness, is worse than child abuse?
    • 4.1.1 This entity is a human being whose nervous system is developing at about 3-5 weeks after conception; abortion is in fact a form of child abuse, though, no less and no more grave than any other child killed.
      • This argument doesn't really answer the original point except by re-stating that abortion is child abuse and going further to assert (without justification) that it is murder – though it does introduce the implicit question of the morality of abortion after the nervous system has begun operation.
      • We'll take it as agreed that killing an embryo with no nervous system, if the mother wishes it, should not be regarded as any more immoral than killing a plant – never mind being comparable to the abuse of a fully-formed child who not only feels physical pain but can also feel the loss of love and hope. Claiming that the former is even equivalent to the latter would show tremendous insensitivity toward children. If anyone is seriously proposing that abortion should be illegal before the nervous system has gone into operation, please post here or on the discussion page.
• 5. "As a former fetus, I oppose abortion." - countered
  • 5.1 As former fetuses, many people support the right to keep it legal. Nobody likes abortion; we're all trying to minimize it -- but making it illegal is about as effective as the war on drugs, and takes effort away from work which might actually help meet the goal of reducing or eliminating abortions.

}}

Basic claims

{{#tree:

• 1 Killing an animal and killing a fetus are two completely different things, and different ethical standards [do and should] apply.
  • 1.1 In what way are they so different that one is acceptable and the other is not?
    • 1.1.1 Animals have been used for food since prehistoric times. What purpose does killing a human fetus serve?
      • 1.1.1 This breaks down into two arguments:
        • 1.1.1.1 They are different in that animals have been used for food since prehistoric times, and abortion is a relatively new.
          • 1.1.1.1.1 While abortion as a relatively safe and reliable procedure is relatively new (requiring modern medicine), it has been performed since ancient times. Many cultures were more liberal about it than 21st century America, too.
        • 1.1.1.2 They are different in that animals are killed for food, while abortion serves no useful purpose.
          • 1.1.1.2 Again, this is two separate claims:
            • 1.1.1.2a Animals are only killed for useful purposes such as food.
              • 1.1.1.2a.1 Wrong. Animals are frequently killed solely for entertainment, or even accidentally. Society also condones the daily killing of millions of animals in vehicle impacts, spending very little effort to reduce the rate at which this happens.
            • 1.1.1.2b Abortion serves no useful purpose.
              • 1.1.1.2b.1 What utter rot. See abortion/reasons.
• 2 Abortion is murder - countered

}}

Free-form Discussion

This section is for more free-form discussion of anti-abortion positions, written to be emotionally appealing but longer than a slogan.

• absurdly long username said, in response to counter 2.2 under #Slogans (above):

An animal being killed for food and a living, breathing human being, who just has yet to leave the mother's uterus is a completely different thing. And capital punishment is used only on sick, disgusting, and violent murderers like John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, etc., who had their chance to not kill people, and blew it. What I don't understand is how you people can defend rapists and murderers on death row, but support the murder of innocent children.

responses

I don't support the murder of innocent children; I support the mother's right to request the killing of her unborn baby for any damn reason she likes -- although I will settle for some restrictions, e.g. the baby must not be able to survive outside the womb, if necessary in order to reach an agreement. I will absolutely not stand for any restrictions on abortion prior to the fetus's growing nerves, as up to that point it is just a lump of flesh (not a human being, not even an animal, but barely equivalent to a vegetable).

If you had been falsely accused of murder and wound up on death row, wouldn't you want someone defending you?

--Woozle 02:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)