Difference between revisions of "Religion"

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(→‎Mechanisms: bloom quote on group solidarity)
(moved best/worst achievements to "track record" page; significant reorg)
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In this conception religion is a fraternity, and the analogy runs deep. Just as fraternities used to paddle freshmen on the rear end to instill loyalty and commitment, religions have painful initiation rites – for example, snipping off part of the penis. Also, certain puzzling features of many religions, such as dietary restrictions and distinctive dress, make perfect sense once they are viewed as tools to ensure group solidarity.
 
In this conception religion is a fraternity, and the analogy runs deep. Just as fraternities used to paddle freshmen on the rear end to instill loyalty and commitment, religions have painful initiation rites – for example, snipping off part of the penis. Also, certain puzzling features of many religions, such as dietary restrictions and distinctive dress, make perfect sense once they are viewed as tools to ensure group solidarity.
 
{{-excerpt|from [http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200512/god-accident/2 page 2] of [http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200512/god-accident Is God an Accident?], ''Atlantic Monthly'', December 2005}}
 
{{-excerpt|from [http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200512/god-accident/2 page 2] of [http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200512/god-accident Is God an Accident?], ''Atlantic Monthly'', December 2005}}
 
+
==Related Concepts==
===Related Concepts===
 
 
* {{wpbackup|Russell's teapot|Russell's teapot}} is an analogy coined by the philosopher {{wpbackup|Bertrand Russell}} to refute the idea that skeptics have the burden of disproof regarding un[[falsifiable]] claims of religions. [[Richard Dawkins]] adds to this the observation that we are all [[atheist]]s about a great many things, including Odin, Zeus, and Quetzalcoatl, whose existence nobody even considers the ''need'' to disprove; why is it necessary to disprove the existence of [[God]] as well, for whom there is no more evidence than any of the others?
 
* {{wpbackup|Russell's teapot|Russell's teapot}} is an analogy coined by the philosopher {{wpbackup|Bertrand Russell}} to refute the idea that skeptics have the burden of disproof regarding un[[falsifiable]] claims of religions. [[Richard Dawkins]] adds to this the observation that we are all [[atheist]]s about a great many things, including Odin, Zeus, and Quetzalcoatl, whose existence nobody even considers the ''need'' to disprove; why is it necessary to disprove the existence of [[God]] as well, for whom there is no more evidence than any of the others?
 
* [[Einsteinian religion]] is a term used by [[Richard Dawkins]] (and possibly others) to describe the non-theistic, non-traditional uses of the words "[[God]]" and "religion" by [[Albert Einstein]] and other prominent non-religious scientists.
 
* [[Einsteinian religion]] is a term used by [[Richard Dawkins]] (and possibly others) to describe the non-theistic, non-traditional uses of the words "[[God]]" and "religion" by [[Albert Einstein]] and other prominent non-religious scientists.
 
+
* [[Wikipedia:Providentialism|Providentialism]] is the belief that God is actively directing the affairs of the world, e.g. through the actions of 'chosen people' whom God "provides" for such purposes.
 +
* [[Wikipedia:Blasphemy|Blasphemy]]
 +
* [[Wikipedia:Heresy|Heresy]]
 
==Related Pages==
 
==Related Pages==
 
* [[Religion]] is a [[philosophical concept]].
 
* [[Religion]] is a [[philosophical concept]].
 +
* Many religions (notably, most fundamentalist Christian varieties) tend to be [[pro-life]], [[anti-contraception]], and [[anti-sex-education]], and in general have strong opinions about [[reproductive issues]].
 +
* [[prayer in public schools]]
 +
* It is often argued that the [[USA is a Christian nation]]
 +
* [[Creationism]] and [[intelligent design]] are two attempts to explain the [[creation]] of the universe in a [[Bible|Biblical]]ly-correct way
 
* Most [[religion]] revolves around the idea of (or depends upon) the existence of one or more supernatural beings, most commonly a single being named [[God]].
 
* Most [[religion]] revolves around the idea of (or depends upon) the existence of one or more supernatural beings, most commonly a single being named [[God]].
 
* [[Atheism]] denies the necessity for belief in a [[God]] or gods.
 
* [[Atheism]] denies the necessity for belief in a [[God]] or gods.
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** [[Islam]]
 
** [[Islam]]
 
** [[Scientology]]
 
** [[Scientology]]
 
==Reference==
 
* {{wikipedia|Religion}}
 
* [http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/religion Media Matters]: religion-related media items
 
* '''Wikis'''
 
** [http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Religion Wiki(a)]: "for all religions and none"
 
** [http://www.wikitheism.com/ Wikitheism]
 
** '''Christianity''':
 
*** [http://theopedia.com Theopedia]: "an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity"
 
*** [[wikipedia:Unfulfilled historical predictions by Christians|Unfulfilled historical predictions by Christians]] (Wikipedia)
 
 
==Achievements==
 
* [http://atheistempire.com/reference/news/opinion/Bertrand%20Russell%20-%20Religion%20Useful.txt Has Religion Made Useful Contributions to Civilization?] by [[Bertrand Russell]]
 
===Best===
 
* helps build community between its members, typically strengthening the larger community of which it is a part
 
* countless majestic cathedrals and works of art
 
* popularization of a number of generally [[good]] memes, including:
 
** taboo against killing; the sanctity of (human) life (Judeo-Christianity)
 
** taboo against lying (Judeo-Christianity)
 
** "turning the other cheek", i.e. taboo against vengefulness (Christianity)
 
** taboo against envious or jealous thoughts/behavior (Judeo-Christianity): helps to avoid the ''temptation'' to steal and also helps reduce friction between people of different levels of wealth
 
** help the poor (Christianity)
 
** respect for elders (Confucianism, Judeo-Christianity, others): supports parents in their efforts to impart good values to their children; supports the transmission of community history, so it can be learned from; helps prevent elder abuse
 
* popularization of memes useful within their cultural context:
 
** taboo against stealing; the sanctity of personal property (Judeo-Christianity): some viable cultures don't/didn't have the concept of personal property, at least not to the same extent; results have been mixed
 
===Worst===
 
* The [[wikipedia:Inquisition|Inquisition]]s (Catholicism)
 
* Persecution of homosexuals and others with non-standard gender traits
 
* The declaration that rock music is the work of the devil (American Christian extremists, late 1950s)
 
* The burning of [[wikipedia:the Beatles|Beatles]] albums in response to John Lennon's off-the-cuff statement that the Beatles "are more popular than [[Jesus Christ|Jesus]] now" (American Christian [[religious extremism|extremists]], 1966)
 
* Repression of women (most religions, throughout history)
 
* Repression of [[scientific]] progress
 
** [[religion vs. science]]
 
* Sexual repression, including: repression of [[homosexuality]] and {{wpbackup|transsexuality}} [http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0805/prager080205.php3]; adverse control of heterosexual behavior between consenting adults; adverse control of non-interpersonal sexual behavior
 
* The destruction of countless works of art; examples:
 
** The [[wikipedia:Buddhas of Bamiyan|Buddhas of Bamiyan]] ([[Taliban]] - [[Islam]])
 
* Countless instances of [[wikipedia:religious violence|religious violence]]; examples:
 
** the [[2006 Mohammed image riots]] ([[Islam]])
 
** The [[9/11]] attacks are believed to have been planned and carried out by [[Islam]]ic extremists ([[Al Qaeda]])
 
* The [[wikipedia:Ku Klux Klan|Ku Klux Klan]] claimed to be a Christian organization (what was Christianity's reaction to this?)
 
* The [[wikipedia:Flat Earth Society|Flat Earth Society]]
 
* Doctrinal arguments in support of slavery caused much of Christendom to support what we now know to be a great evil
 
 
 
==Definitions==
 
==Definitions==
 
===Jehovah's Witnesses===
 
===Jehovah's Witnesses===
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** '''Tolerates immoral sex''', which apparently means [[homosexuality]] and [[gay marriage]], as well as tolerance of child abuse
 
** '''Tolerates immoral sex''', which apparently means [[homosexuality]] and [[gay marriage]], as well as tolerance of child abuse
 
==Links==
 
==Links==
 +
===Reference===
 +
* {{wikipedia|Religion}}
 +
* [http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/religion Media Matters]: religion-related media items
 +
* '''Wikis'''
 +
** [http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Religion Wiki(a)]: "for all religions and none"
 +
** [http://www.wikitheism.com/ Wikitheism]
 +
** '''Christianity''':
 +
*** [http://theopedia.com Theopedia]: "an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity"
 +
*** [[wikipedia:Unfulfilled historical predictions by Christians|Unfulfilled historical predictions by Christians]] (Wikipedia)
 
===Facts & Data===
 
===Facts & Data===
 
* [http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/geo/courses/geo200/religion.html American Ethnic Geography]: maps of {{USA}} church membership by county
 
* [http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/geo/courses/geo200/religion.html American Ethnic Geography]: maps of {{USA}} church membership by county
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* [http://www.blogphilo.com/wikiwrit/index.php?title=Main_Page WikiWrit]: "The Holy Book Anyone Can Edit"
 
* [http://www.blogphilo.com/wikiwrit/index.php?title=Main_Page WikiWrit]: "The Holy Book Anyone Can Edit"
  
==Related Articles==
 
* Many religions (notably, most fundamentalist Christian varieties) tend to be [[pro-life]], [[anti-contraception]], and [[anti-sex-education]], and in general have strong opinions about [[reproductive issues]].
 
* [[religion vs. science]]
 
* [[prayer in public schools]]
 
* It is often argued that the [[USA is a Christian nation]]
 
* [[Creationism]] and [[intelligent design]] are two attempts to explain the [[creation]] of the universe in a Biblically-correct way
 
 
==Related Concepts==
 
* [[Wikipedia:Providentialism|Providentialism]] is the belief that God is actively directing the affairs of the world, e.g. through the actions of 'chosen people' whom God "provides" for such purposes.
 
* [[Wikipedia:Blasphemy|Blasphemy]]
 
* [[Wikipedia:Heresy|Heresy]]
 
 
==Problems with religion==
 
==Problems with religion==
 
===Woozle makes some points===
 
===Woozle makes some points===
 
* The chain of reasoning in many religious arguments vanishes into a [[black box argument|black box]], usually with the inscription "God says" on the outside. Even with churches like the LDS which admit the possibility of individuals communicating directly with God in order to get a better understanding of what God means, you are still either (a) forced to admit belief in God (can't communicate with something you don't believe in), (b) argue solely from existing religious doctrine, or else (c) have the validity of your arguments denied (your argument isn't based on God's word, so your premises may be wrong). In order to take part in the discussion, you have to admit to belief in God -- which is basically conceding the argument. In other words, the whole thing is a [[circular argument]] based on the [[infallibility of God]].
 
* The chain of reasoning in many religious arguments vanishes into a [[black box argument|black box]], usually with the inscription "God says" on the outside. Even with churches like the LDS which admit the possibility of individuals communicating directly with God in order to get a better understanding of what God means, you are still either (a) forced to admit belief in God (can't communicate with something you don't believe in), (b) argue solely from existing religious doctrine, or else (c) have the validity of your arguments denied (your argument isn't based on God's word, so your premises may be wrong). In order to take part in the discussion, you have to admit to belief in God -- which is basically conceding the argument. In other words, the whole thing is a [[circular argument]] based on the [[infallibility of God]].
 
 
* Belief in absolutes ([[moral absolutism]] and the [[infallibility of God]]) can be used to justify extreme measures. If your faith's doctrine tells you with ''absolute, unquestionable certainty'' that what someone is doing is ''absolutely wrong regardless of circumstance'', that removes most or all of the uncertainty and allowance for mistake (perhaps there are extenuating circumstances; perhaps your belief that their actions are wrong is incorrect; and so on) with which most people operate when deciding whether to take action against someone.
 
* Belief in absolutes ([[moral absolutism]] and the [[infallibility of God]]) can be used to justify extreme measures. If your faith's doctrine tells you with ''absolute, unquestionable certainty'' that what someone is doing is ''absolutely wrong regardless of circumstance'', that removes most or all of the uncertainty and allowance for mistake (perhaps there are extenuating circumstances; perhaps your belief that their actions are wrong is incorrect; and so on) with which most people operate when deciding whether to take action against someone.
 
+
* Because of the belief in absolutes, the [[black box argument|black box]] nature of basic religious doctrine, and the [[authoritarian]] nature of most religions, it is extremely easy for someone who is both unscrupulous and power-hungry to manipulate, with a high degree of precision, those who have been raised and trained in the validity of such thinking.
* Because of the belief in absolutes (which allows for a great deal of preci and the [[black box argument|black box]] nature of basic religious doctrine, it is extremely easy for someone who is both unscrupulous and power-hungry to manipulate those who have been raised and trained in the validity of such thinking.
 
 
 
 
* If absolute truth can be had by speaking with God (as allowed by some faiths, but not all):
 
* If absolute truth can be had by speaking with God (as allowed by some faiths, but not all):
 
** If you believe that God has spoken to you, how do you know that it is really God? (How can you tell the difference between the "real God" and an extremely advanced but non-divine being who isn't entirely honest?)
 
** If you believe that God has spoken to you, how do you know that it is really God? (How can you tell the difference between the "real God" and an extremely advanced but non-divine being who isn't entirely honest?)

Revision as of 01:52, 15 March 2007

Overview

A religion is "a system of social coherence based on a common group of beliefs or attitudes concerning an object, person, unseen being, or system of thought considered to be supernatural, sacred, divine or highest truth, and the moral codes, practices, values, institutions, and rituals associated with such belief or system of thought. It is sometimes used interchangeably with "faith" or "belief system"[1], but is more socially defined than that of personal convictions." In other words, a "religion" is a type of "faith" that includes social aspects.

The vast majority of religions, especially those based in the West where Abrahamic religions dominate, assert the existence of a single God who created the universe.

Mechanisms

Religion is a kind of sanctioned irrationality, an organized suspension of disbelief in certain areas by a coalition of willing believers. In exchange for this suspension, believers receive their belief-system essentially pre-digested (to an extent which varies by religion) by higher authority, rather than having to go to the trouble of working it out for themselves. Some believers will go to the trouble of trying to reconcile their beliefs with reality, but this generally only goes so far; when push comes to shove, it is reality that gets second priority.

Most religions encourage their believers to reproduce and to pass on their religion to their children, at an age when children tend to believe anything their parents tell them; this is one of the most powerful mechanisms by which religion is spread, and certainly the most powerful method by which it is maintained against contrary evidence.

Most if not all religions use a number of obvious memetic social control mechanisms to maximize the number of new adherents, minimize the numbers who leave, and prevent any serious inquiry into the veracity of doctrine. Some religions make more use of these than others, but it seems safe to say that they all use at least one of them:

Paul Bloom said:

In this conception religion is a fraternity, and the analogy runs deep. Just as fraternities used to paddle freshmen on the rear end to instill loyalty and commitment, religions have painful initiation rites – for example, snipping off part of the penis. Also, certain puzzling features of many religions, such as dietary restrictions and distinctive dress, make perfect sense once they are viewed as tools to ensure group solidarity.

from page 2 of Is God an Accident?, Atlantic Monthly, December 2005

Related Concepts

  • Russell's teapot [W] is an analogy coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell [W] to refute the idea that skeptics have the burden of disproof regarding unfalsifiable claims of religions. Richard Dawkins adds to this the observation that we are all atheists about a great many things, including Odin, Zeus, and Quetzalcoatl, whose existence nobody even considers the need to disprove; why is it necessary to disprove the existence of God as well, for whom there is no more evidence than any of the others?
  • Einsteinian religion is a term used by Richard Dawkins (and possibly others) to describe the non-theistic, non-traditional uses of the words "God" and "religion" by Albert Einstein and other prominent non-religious scientists.
  • Providentialism is the belief that God is actively directing the affairs of the world, e.g. through the actions of 'chosen people' whom God "provides" for such purposes.
  • Blasphemy
  • Heresy

Related Pages

Definitions

Jehovah's Witnesses

According to a flyer distributed in 2006 by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania (the mouthpiece of the Jehovah's Witnesses, an apocalyptic evangelical Christian sect):

  • True Religion:
    • Practices love: "True worshippers are 'no part of the world', are not divided by race or culture, and display 'love among themselves' (John 13:35; 17:16; Acts 10:34, 35)... Rather than killing one another, they are willing to die for one another (1 John 3:16)"
    • Trusts God's word: true religion bases its doctrine on God's word, not on tradition or the commands of men
    • Strengthens families and upholds high moral standards: husbands must "love their wives as their own bodies", wives must develop "deep respect for their husbands", children must "be obedient to their parents", and "those entrusted with positions of authority must have exemplary morals". A "true religion" encourages or requires all of these.
  • False Religion:
    • Meddles in war and politics: quotes the journal Asiaweek (ceased publication in December 2001) as saying "...power-hungry leaders are cynically manipulating people's religious sentiments for their own needs." Contrasts the words of an unnamed "prominent religious leader in the United States" who said "You've got to kill the terrorists before the killing stops. ... Blow them all away in the name of the Lord." with several Bible quotations: "If anyone makes the statement 'I love God' and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar." (1 John 4:20) and "Continue to love your enemies." (Matthew 5:44).
    • Spreads false doctrine, which apparently means teaching that the soul does not die, or does not die under certain circumstances, and thereby extracting money from their followers to help ensure this reward. (Apparently what really happens is that the dead will be resurrected, as taught by Jesus (John 11:11-25), so no afterlife is necessary.)
    • Tolerates immoral sex, which apparently means homosexuality and gay marriage, as well as tolerance of child abuse

Links

Reference

Facts & Data

Non-Religious

  • Iron Chariots: provides "responses, information and resources to help counter the glut of misinformation and poor arguments which masquerade as "evidence" for religious claims."

Religious POV

News

Science on Religion

Criticism of Religion

  • 2006-12-05 When Atheists Have Their Say by Matt Arnold (blog entry with comments)
  • 2006-11-24
    • The Alpha Male Monkey In The Sky
    • Beyond belief: "What is belief? Is absence of proof the same as proof of absence, or is it just as misguided to disbelieve something without evidence as it is to believe in it? In this article we explore the touchy issue of dogmatic belief and try to establish why atheism is not just 'religion for the nonbelievers'."
  • 2006-11-14 Faith Won't Heal a Divided World by Sam Harris: "It is worth observing that religion is the one area of our lives where faith in dogma – that is, belief without sufficient evidence – is considered a virtue. If such faith is a virtue, it is a virtue that is completely unknown to scientific discourse. Science is, in fact, the one domain in which a person can win considerable prestige for proving himself wrong. In science, honesty is all. In religion, faith is all." ... "It would, of course, be absurd to speak of 'Christian physics' or 'Muslim algebra.' And there is no such thing as Iraqi or Japanese – as distinct from American – science. Reasonable people really do have a monopoly on the truth. And while they might not agree about everything in the near term, common ground surrounds them on all sides."
  • 2006-05-24 How do you prove Jesus existed? CNN article about an Italian man who is suing the Catholic Church to prove the existence of Jesus (with reader comments)
  • 2006-05-16 Why Religion Must End by Laura Sheahen, Beliefnet (original is much more cluttered)
  • 2006-03-05 The Book of Bart: "In the Bestseller 'Misquoting Jesus,' Agnostic Author Bart Ehrman Picks Apart the Gospels That Made a Disbeliever Out of Him"
  • 2006-03 Killing the Buddha by Sam Harris: religion stands in the way of rational discussion of belief
  • The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam Harris: ISBN 0393035158 (hb) ISBN 0393327655 (pb)
  • Islam: The Religion of Peace (Believe It Or Else): not sure how rational this site is, but it certainly presents food for thought
  • Exposing Religious Error and Deception: bizarre, disjointed criticisms of Christianity (by someone apparently named Seven Star Hand) which nonetheless seem to make a few useful points... but mixed in with all kinds of bizarre nonsense...

Experimental

  • WikiWrit: "The Holy Book Anyone Can Edit"

Problems with religion

Woozle makes some points

  • The chain of reasoning in many religious arguments vanishes into a black box, usually with the inscription "God says" on the outside. Even with churches like the LDS which admit the possibility of individuals communicating directly with God in order to get a better understanding of what God means, you are still either (a) forced to admit belief in God (can't communicate with something you don't believe in), (b) argue solely from existing religious doctrine, or else (c) have the validity of your arguments denied (your argument isn't based on God's word, so your premises may be wrong). In order to take part in the discussion, you have to admit to belief in God -- which is basically conceding the argument. In other words, the whole thing is a circular argument based on the infallibility of God.
  • Belief in absolutes (moral absolutism and the infallibility of God) can be used to justify extreme measures. If your faith's doctrine tells you with absolute, unquestionable certainty that what someone is doing is absolutely wrong regardless of circumstance, that removes most or all of the uncertainty and allowance for mistake (perhaps there are extenuating circumstances; perhaps your belief that their actions are wrong is incorrect; and so on) with which most people operate when deciding whether to take action against someone.
  • Because of the belief in absolutes, the black box nature of basic religious doctrine, and the authoritarian nature of most religions, it is extremely easy for someone who is both unscrupulous and power-hungry to manipulate, with a high degree of precision, those who have been raised and trained in the validity of such thinking.
  • If absolute truth can be had by speaking with God (as allowed by some faiths, but not all):
    • If you believe that God has spoken to you, how do you know that it is really God? (How can you tell the difference between the "real God" and an extremely advanced but non-divine being who isn't entirely honest?)
    • If someone else claims God has spoken to them, how do you know they are not lying (or else deceived, as above)?

Quotes

  • "Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God." – Martin Luther, quoted in The God Delusion page 190 (along with "Whosoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his reason." and "Reason should be destroyed in all Christians.")
  • "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion." – Robert M. Pirsig
  • "You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt." – Robert M. Pirsig
  • "I believe that religion, generally speaking, has been a curse to mankind—that its modest and greatly overestimated services on the ethical side have been more than overborne by the damage it has done to clear and honest thinking." – H. L. Mencken
  • "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." – H. L. Mencken
Douglas Adams said:

Religion ... has certain ideas at the heart of it which we call sacred or holy or whatever. What it means is, "Here is an idea or notion that you're not allowed to say anything bad about; you're just not. Why not? – because you're not!"

If somebody votes for a party that you don't agree with, you're free to argue about it as much as you like; everybody will have an argument but nobody feels aggrieved by it. If somebody thinks taxes should go up or down, you are free to have an argument about it. But on the other hand if somebody says "I mustn't move a light switch on a Saturday", you say "I respect that".

Why should it be that it's perfectly legitimate to support the Labour Party or the Conservative Party, Republicans or Democrats, this model of economics versus that, Macintosh instead of Windows – but to have an opinion about how the Universe began, about who created the Universe ... no, that's holy?

...

We are used to not challenging religious ideas but it's very interesting how much of a furore Richard creates when he does it! Everybody gets absolutely frantic because you're not allowed to say these things. Yet when you look at it rationally, there's no reason why those ideas shouldn't be as open to debate as any other, except that we have agreed somehow between us that they shouldn't be.

quoted in "The God Delusion", pages 20-21

This brings up the topic of "why religion is a taboo subject", which is probably worthy of a page of its own. I don't know what Douglas Adams might have been taught when he was growing up, but when I was growing up the reason I remember understanding for not criticizing religion was something like " we don't understand it, but it's important to them, and it's not hurting anyone". Later I may have realized on my own that there are also hostilities between religions, so if you start to criticize one particular person's religion, others will know the particulars of their faith and the person you spoke with will be subject to religious discrimination from members of other faiths. The first argument falls apart in the face of increasing religion-based violence, and the latter falls apart when you realize it is almost entirely members of other religions who behave this way; atheists do not, generally speaking, attack people personally on the basis of their religion, but at most will attack the religion itself while still believing fervently in the individual's right to believe whatever they want. In any case, further discussion seems warranted. --Woozle 21:33, 14 February 2007 (EST)

Trivia

  • Contrary to a popular saying, there are atheists in foxholes. [1]

Humor